Consciously Evolving Language – Workshop 2 - 27 Oct 2020

John, If there is no structure holding the wholeness together, it is not a wholeness, it is a plurality. This would argue that we are not connected, just little bits of star dust floating around in the same neighborhood.

Kate:

A whole needs an unmoved mover, meaning, there must be something that holds a structure together.

According to whom, Kate?

Language points to pluralities, multiplicities. I agree we must have a sense of a center. This is somatically located in the midline of the body. It is not a number that I could measure with, it is a felt sense. With what method of measurement would I use to measure last night’s dream?

These are semantic differences that we are pointing to but the boundaries are not structured in such a way that the use of a slide rule or a compass are going to make much sense. And every result that comes from measurement comes from a method of measurement.

There is a difference between math and language. A difference that makes a difference. I am open to the possibility that there is a third that can mediate between first and second. We don’t have to stay stuck in an either/or.

Whole or part? Whole and Part? Neither Whole nor Part?

Fractalholographic?


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John,

A whole needs an unmoved mover, meaning, there must be something that holds a structure together. Otherwise a universe is not a whole, just a huge mass of bits, unrelated to each other. Whatever the structure that holds the whole together is–that is an ummoved mover. A principle that is final point of integration.

Kate:

You assume I am promoting static truths that have become outworn and destructive.

I am responding to the metaphor of the Unmoved Mover. I have big questions marks around this assumption. I am eager to discuss this further but perhaps in classroom it is easier to develop?
This maybe beyond what can be developed in this thread, Kate, so I leave this as an open possibility.


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Yet all of the variations and parts came from one whole strip of paper.

I think our disagreement about this always comes down to the same place. You assume I am promoting static truths that have become outworn and destructive. I argue that outworn truths have never been real truth but just reflections of a deeper condition that is transcendent that we must constantly renew.

There can be no wholeness without a whole. Whether one believes this whole that we are in is a dynamic process using no compass, or a dynamic process that has attractors, the point is, we are connected, there is a whole. And the axis mundi is the organizing principle of the whole.

Black Elk was a Lakota Sioux medicine man and second cousin to Crazy Horse. He was in Both the Battle of the Little Big Horn and the Battle of Wounded Knee. In a vision he had when he was nine years old, he saw the whole world as one. Taken in his vision to the center of the world where there was a world mountain, he saw the hoops of many nations united in one hoop…with on mighty tree sheltering everyone as the children of one father and one mother.

One might argue that this vision is an artifact of just one obscure culture having no real relationship to other cultures, but this would fly in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Kate:

All opposing forces are measured against the Center, the top of the mountain, the Unmoved Mover. Otherwise, all truths are too slippery to hang onto–and one is in a sort of postmodern hall of mirrors.

This arrangement is like the King at the head of the table who can command his household and family or empire. Postmodernism is more than just a hall of mirrors it is an effort to preserve pluralism. Some people don’t like pluralism, people like Donald Trump, for example. He wants a world where he is the boss. . Can we have pluralism without conflict, paradox and impasse? Would we still be alive?
I just want to add something about wholes and parts. Any system can’t be both complete and consistent, according to Godel’s incompleteness theorem. Many mathematicians tried to throw this theorem out but it has tangled up everyone who has tried. So, we can never achieve wholeness as an frozen entity that we can see out there. It can be inferred, the shadows of our doubts, can point to something else, but it is not a package we can put a bow around. The exercise breaks us out of our Euclidean surfaces.

Wholeness and parts are in motion, and as we explored in the exercise, the boundaries and edges of a physical object are very different from the boundaries of complex person who can talk back to you.

It seems we can treat wholes as static ( as Plato did) with an absolute, invisible, whole that was beyond senses. This has led to a lot of fascists’ social theory, the impositions of fixed essences onto persons that they then must obey.

What I liked about the exercise is how it demonstrates that objects, whether physical or semantic, can’t be separated, reduced, and isolated. The exercise seems to point to pluralism, diversity, and movement, rather than an unchanging essence, that is unified without any differences. These are old philosophical problems and I think we should keep them alive rather than try to sort everything out and expect it to sit still. How do you know if it’s alive? Does it move? In the beginning there was movement. And this implies an asymmetry as perfect symmetry would never go anywhere.


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I’d be interested.

Thanks for the video, Michael. And who can separate the Dancer from the Dance?

My concern is that we spend too much time dwelling upon Fauchi and the dying medical model propped up by the CDC. I sense that there is a deep relationship between the new ecological awareness of Dr. Bush and the intelligence on display with the improv dancers. It seems to me that Bush and the dancers are pointing to features of our lifeworld that are coherent while Fauchi and his cohorts are operating out of a fragmented disconnect. How much attention do we want to spend on rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? Working with the various topological figures in class gives me a shift in perception as well as perspective. I hope we can draw upon these kinds of difference in the unfolding of alternate ways of knowing and becoming. I agree we need a reconstructive phase, after postmodern deconstruction as necessary as that was… That is what may be happening now.

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John,
You are right in suggesting other ways of pursuing the virus question and I will follow what you all want to talk about with interest. But I need to clarify my own situation before I go dark.
I began following the adventures of Robert Kennedy Jr. in his fight with the pharmaceutical companies around vaccines last year. Contaminated vaccines was the particular subject that caught my interest when I began following what he had to say.
The thing is, everyone at some point, discovers the hill they are willing to die on, and this one is mine. If I am a victim of my own distorted thinking and have bad information, If I have been hoodwinked into a cause that is not righteous, at some point, my friends and family will drag me out of the rabbit hole I went down, dust me off, and I can make my apologies.
But to me, the very strong possibility that the statistics linking chronic childhood disease to an inflated vaccination schedule and the possibility that the narrative we have around the Corona virus is also contaminated, makes it impossible for me to get another focus. If there is even a question about the safety of the chemicals we pump into babies, do you not think it is the responsibility of people promoting them to tell the truth in good faith? It is fairly well documented that they do not.
I do promise, my dear group members, that you are off the hook. No one need respond. I comfort myself with the “piano falling downstairs” theory of world events. If what Kennedy claims about Fauci and Gates is true, in this present global dumpster fire, it will be revealed.

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I would really enjoy that. But I must admit that as soon as someone (you?) mentioned Justice and Mercy, (Gevurah and Hesed), that tangle of mobial paper arranged itself neatly into the lightening strike of the tree of life, curving down and upon itself in perfectly arranged paired off sets of oppositions like the one you were suggesting I work with in our workshop. The thing is, I have a hard time getting to a conclusion with heavy intellectual lifting . Linear, logical processing is really hard for me. But seeing mythological patterns is an intuitive way to understand something and that is much easier.
I have not yet followed the link you suggested but will tomorrow.

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Great. We can do a private zoom session. Let me know when you’re available.

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Lisa, You are the one doing me a favor. You suggest a time and i’ll be available. Thanks.

Marco,
What am I doing that makes the transcript of my conversation with John such a mess? I see my letters and his repeated several times and not in the proper order.

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John, Postmodernists had their own form of Fascism. Any system that assumes absolute knowledge does this. The Unmoved mover is a metaphor and someone I have not met.

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A great idea. If you could record your private session and make available for others to watch that would be a great community service. We have done this often and this makes feedback loops between members possible. I have a great interest in the Kabballah but I have only a rudimentary understanding of how it works. I would enjoy watching both of you investigate the interplay between these two ways of modeling .

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You can always go to edit at the bottom before you hit the reply button. Highlight the text that you want to delete and cut. Then reply. If the post has printed text you don’t want go to the edit button and try again. I have had this problem before, too, and it gets annoying. I am having a tough time, too, as the system deletes things randomly from my posts and internet is unreliable. What appears on my screen seems to have a life of its own. Still it is worth making the effort.

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This is a hugely important topic, Kate, and is surrounded by mixed messages from many competing sources. I am highly suspicious of the medical model and we are in the midst of a triple bind . I would give attention to Zach Bush rather than Fauchi, but both voices are needed, the official voice ( which I consider crazy) and Zach ( an ecological thinker with communication skills). I am very interested.

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The Café line is always available, and set to auto-record. You might just need someone to log in as the host, or use the secret ‘host key’, to access meeting controls.

A good practice to create a public (or private message) topic for the event, which becomes an archival thread.

If you let me know the date/time, we can add it to the calendar in public or private mode, so that others at least know that the line is not available at that time. We have a secondary/backup Zoom line if needed.


@Kate: I have found that sometimes email programs—and replying to topics by email—can introduce digital artifacts, such as prior snippets of the conversation in the wrong places. There are many different email programs, which all work slightly differently, so it’s hard to control the output from those inputs, so to speak.

Your safer bet is to login to the site <infiniteconversations.com> and reply directly on the topics that interest you, using the web interface.

When you click to Reply to a post and the editor slides up, on the left is the window you type in, on the right a preview of exactly what will appear when it posts. That let’s you verify that everything looks the way you want it to, including line breaks, etc.

Like this…

:mountain_snow:


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Thanks. I’ll try to avoid answering with email. K

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I am also interested in Zach Bush. I wish he would engage more with the false narratives of the CDC but actually, I understand why he does not.
Sorry for the garbled transcript of our conversation. When I have a bit more time, I wish to respond to your comments about plurality at greater length. I have very much enjoyed our conversation.

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So with a observation made by Geoffrey awhile back about Movement-Kinetics in terms of Thought,I’ve been Giving Attention to your question with some Intensity! Not sure I have a answer,what I to want to share is the Experience of being interrupted at a
a very Young age as a Boy Child with Lots of Energy & Enthusiasm to Move. Which for a Child is Dance I Feel.

In giving attention to memories both Visual & in the Muscles was the Big People not supporting my expression & in fact doing at times from the child view , getting mean about the way I was moving.

Moving into a different set of memories with both the V-M aspect. I am between 9 & 11,having to have a Operation (actually more like 3) to remove a Hernia & my left testicle.Knowing what I know now about Trauma & understanding it probably affected not only me but my Mother,well let’s just say anxiety was very much in the air.I had another operation at around 11 which tied my right testicle to my right leg during the summer for 6-8 weeks .

Now this background is to describe the movement of thought,sensation,emotion & overall path I’ve taken to respond to your question. Now when I got in High School Mom could not stop me from entering Sports;the one that helped me grain some confidence Embracing a Moving Body of the Masculine form was Wrestling.Such a Intimate way to engage with one’s Body.

The Square Circle

Which has left lasting tendencies on so many levels,especially in terms how the movement of Wrestling is WAY Different than “Dance” & yet there is some crossover.This left me with a "I ain’t got that kind of Rhythm ", now Freestyle & the 60’s did relax my Self-Consciousness around Both Movement & Dance. It’s probably why I was attracted to the Seselelame “Feel Feel at Flesh Inside” You Tube Video.

Circling around in a Spiral Kind of Way,the Movement-Dance I Enjoy-Especially in the Hurricane Storm we’re living with, Moving Toward the EYE of the Storm:

Without Defaulting with Denial & the Flip Grasping after Control,by Walking the Labyrinth there’s a Trusting of Opening to a Third Possibility without grabbing for a False sense of Hope.This Is Big Intensity & I am not a Child any More & yet the Child has a Home Inside this
Fragile Human Life Form.

So Let’s Dance,Move,Wiggle Our way into the Unknown.Because that’s a Possibility Too!

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Thanks, Michael, for sharing your dance with the group. I sense that the dancer and the dance are a necessary unity and that your dance and my dance will necessarily be different but never separate. It takes more than a village to raise a child, and it take many decades of imaginative living to make sense of what life gives to us. Our traumas do have a size and shape and there is more to us than our traumas. Keeping one foot in the memory of a trauma and one foot in the feeling of mystery, and we can do both at the same time…

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I can understand that, too. If you engage with the CDC and Dr. Fauchi you will be stuck in glue. We are it seems between narratives shaped by radically different presuppositions. One discourse event can’t be put into the the other and the CDC demands compliance to one model of causality and that is the model that requires all others to shut down. It is a dying world view, built upon exploitation and manufactured suffering. Getting stuck in critique of such a world is to enter a swamp where toxic waste has produced weird monsters. I saw many friends devoured by these monsters. AZT was the favorite drug that was promoted in the 80’s for HIV. One of the side effects is bone marrow rot. It was a drug that many doctors said was the cutting edge. It killed lots of people and when they had killed off as much of the gay population as they could they exported it to Africa. AZT was originally a drug for the cancer market that failed so they rerouted it to the AIDS market. I could go on and on about all of this. I was there and saw it up close, I touched the sufferings, I held people in my arms, I cleaned up the shit and vomit and blood, It was the darkest of dark nights. don’t want to go that way, again. And yet I was opened up to a vast intelligence that is still unfolding in my living arrangements and will not let me go. I have been one of the damned.

And at the same time I don’t want to reject that experience, nor enter into fight, flight, freeze. We can end up shadow boxing, giving away our power to the egregores, the thought forms, that have no dominion over us. To make these kinds of distinctions we need to drop our pre-given worn out narrative and metaphors and try to catch a new rhythm that is coming at us. We can play victim, roll over and play dead, hoping that we will be spared if we are not noticed. This strategy of playing dead comes out of a reptilian response, but when mammals use this shut down mode it triggers havoc in our systems.

Sorry, Kate, if this turns into rant. I have been kicked, spit on, and thrown out of more than one village. And when that happens you don’t want to go back to the village, even when they plead for you to return. And where do you go?

This is the response that many of us nomads are starting to ponder together. As we recognize that we are all one of the damned, in this current pandemic, we can find a place for us…somewhere a place for us.

My feeling is we can oscillate between the light and the dark and not get stuck. Between dark and light color arises. I saw this last night in my dream.

I watched rapidly moving scenery, moving towards me, on a screen. The scenes were of roads and streets, rural and urban, all in black and white. Then I reached out my right hand and saw the dark imprint of my dream hand touch the screen where the imagery appeared. I then entered the scene and it turned into color.

It was full of color. I walked towards a town and there was a gathering in the town square. I climbed a tree and watched the people. I asked a man, " Sir, what year is this?"

He said," 1937." I wondered about time travel …and what hidden capacities our imaginal selves might open up…

In a strange way I am engaging with the technology as the shamans in the caves did…we can still see the print of their hands on the walls of the cave…working with the subtle realms in a concrete way…

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And the Place is the Social Dreaming Network we are Engaging in Here John for me. I am living the Nomadic life with U & the Others & learning to See-Feel in the Dark the Light which includes All Colors. Van Gogh’s Sanity is running in my veins my Friend.

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And this capacity that each of us has to develop new relationships through our Imaginations is not due to the operations of an unconscious that obscures reality. The CDC and Dr, Fauci of the Deep Pharma Global Corporation do not want you to know this.

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