Convening a Cosmos Wisdom Council


(john davis) #21

Older retirees, born of the depression, had a different set of priorities. The resources that the economy of the fifties generated, when they were in their prime, were not available to many of the baby boomers. And many of the baby boomers didnt organize their behavior around corporate sponsored values. So I find many boomers have much more in common with the millennial generation than they do with the older generation who were more friendly to the conventional corporate set ups that many of them flourished in. Not everyone has a pension in the current aging population and they are fending for themselves in a non existent job market. A radical re-imagining of what getting old is all about might make us alert to those who dont age like everyone else. I am more interested in the idiosyncratic and the unique than I am in universal archetypes.

I do agree, that self-organization theory, relies upon the self-reflexive capacities of individual development. Society and Species are are high level abstractions we must guard against. One size does not fit all. The elderly can be wonderfully eccentric. That is perhaps their greatest charm and I have seen that stifled quite a bit in the old folks homes I have worked within. Luckily, I was a consultant, and worked with individuals who had enough money to afford what I have to offer. Money is what matters in our current form of social organizations, not the creative imagination. So I see this tug of war between social and cultural happening a lot. I also worked with gay elders who were treated with suspicion by staff and other elders, because they had no stories to tell about their spouses, their children or their grandchildren. Alternative ways of knowing were not listened to. And sadly, some of of the old school bigotry, still exists, even as the law no longer actively discriminates against LGBTQ persons. How could we tap into different wisdom traditions and share knowledge between different kinds of socio-economic set ups? I’m not sure.

What we need is a place for us…somewhere a place for us…

(Mark Jabbour) #22

Sounds like, Marco, what you’re describing is a replica of the US’s governing process.
A “suggestion-proposal” (I liked that structure)
Recommended reading: “Seven Arrows” (1972) Hyemeyohsts Storm. pg. 6
“To the North on the Medicine Wheel is found Wisdom. The Color of the Wisdom of the North is White, and its Medicine Animal is the Buffalo.”
and on around the wheel. “A man or woman who perceives only from the West will go over the same thought again and again in their mind, and will always be undecided. And if a person has only the Gift of the South (innocence and trust, Green, Mouse), he will see everything with the eyes of a Mouse. He will be too close to the ground and too near sighted to see anything except whatever is right in front of him, touching his whiskers.” And so on … it’s a great book!

(Durwin Foster) #23

And Lloyd has given permission to share his writing website here. He has a few novels out, mostly LGBTQ fiction since he is an openly gay man.

(Jim Trattner) #24

This is all quite interesting. I’m now 79. I like to think that I am wiser than I was earlier in my life. I would enjoy participating in a council of elders. Like Ann, the phone doesn’t ring much anymore. I was CEO of several successful Silicon Valley tech companies. Sold them and blessedly, like Ann, do not have financial stress. My biggest contemporary issue is my memory (short term). It’s embarassing to be forgetful. Perhaps I puffed too much weed when I was younger. Still puffing here in Venice, CA and checking in on Marco and company every once in awhile. My God are you guys wordy! It’s humbling to not understand much if what’s written on this Infinite Conversation site plus its even more literary cousins. How about a micro-dose research group for old hippies? That’s more up my alley. You kids have all the time in the world to muse and plan, and create. I, on the other hand, feed my dilettante urges with my propensity to do the next thing, what ever that may be. I’m resisting my impulse to delete all this shit (referring to my note, of course) and go back to a recorded Rachel Madow MSNBC Trump takedown. Forgive me, I’m not as cynical as I sound. Oh I have a valuable “read” to recommend. It’s called The Swerve by Stephen Greenblatt. Anybody know about Lucretius and the earlier Epicurean “atomists”? My most recent version of compassionate atheism is supported by this very scholarly work. If you don’t know about it, you should. Good luck to you all. We all need good luck.

(Ann Roberts) #25

@Mark_Jabbour - Wowww eee that you have chosen a quote from Storm’s book is wonderfully synchronistic - one to my Teachers RainbowHawk trained with him. So this is the lineage that I speak from. Thank you

(Ann Roberts) #26

@JimT Great to hear your voice - and I too struggle sometimes to comprehend the content and the flow of conversations here AND I am persereving cos I feel welcomed. There is something for me to grow into and to bring my energy and expertise forward that I sense is good for me at this time in my life. Finding vibrant and friendly communities is not that easy. I still have trouble finding my way around and I would be up for a micro-research group - next steps for me ? Rachel Madow - ? the Swerve and ? Lucretius and Epicurena atomists. LOL. Tonight I am going to listing to Thomas Huebl’s free on-line presentation called The Mystical Compass. I really enjoy his teaching.


(Mark Jabbour) #27

My glib response is - of course. The Medicine Wheel rang a bell. I just returned w/a face-to-face with Marco (we live close to each other, & have been friends for 5 years). I showed him the book. We had a great conversation with regard to all things regarding the “Wheel”; and, we’re moving towards a physical place (brick & mortar) Cosmos Cafe where such ideas are discussed and welcome. Stay tuned … . I loved! your perspective and contribution.

(Jim Trattner) #28

Thank you, Ann, for replying. I’m much more of a talker than a writer and am quite self conscious about my lack of eloquence relating to the written word. Instead, I find my self becoming a bit of a curmudgeon and sit on the sidelines more often than not. Honestly, I feel somewhat out of place, not only by age (79) but also by by personal beliefs regarding the universe. There seems to be a connecting ethos in this group has a foundation in WIlbur, Gebsner and others whose writings I have not read. I, like many, stay somewhat stuck in my own personal belief system which has been shaped by my life long experiences and I feel a fairly deep gulf between me and the nucleus of the Cosmos Clan. I really have enjoyed my one on one talks with Marco, who I told once that I “wished he were my son. But beyond that, don’t think I have been able to develop any real connection. My original entree to this “gang” was cataloged by Carmen DeJesus who I don’t think you probably know.

My interests seem to always lean towards the general world of human intimacy. I like to be personal and hopefully close with my friends and relations. Regarding, solving any “problems”, I’m skeptical. Mostly because I start out with a proposition that we have no ability to “do” anything. What I mean is that I don’t think there is any such thing as volition so all this chatter is much ado about nothing. I am sane enough, however, to know that this is a provocative statement but I make it here, to you, to try to explain my own personal interests in Non-Dual teachings and why I mentioned The Swerve and the Atomists. Take a look at and you will see a chap named Wayne Liquorman. He has had a big influence on my thinking. He kind of saved my ass years ago when I was busily seeking what I thought was “enlightenment”. It’s a long story and probably has no meaning for anyone besides me. I did however recommend the Swerve to you because I think it’s a major work that could upset many apple carts. I invite you to read my note about myself, somewhere in the Infinite Conversation Introductions section and it may explain why this dilettante has pulled in his horns and have became more of a lurker than a participant. I’m rambling now, so my apologies. I just couldn’t resist enjoying the attention you kindly showed me and am happy to rub shoulders with a fellow elder statesman. Actually, to me, you’re still a kid. I barely qualify as a Baby Boomer, even though I am. So, whenever you’re feeling lonely, give me a shout and I’ll try to remember to reply (smile). Self consciously I apologize in advance to this stream of consciousness written piece. I’m actually too lazy to re-read and rewrite, so my apologies if it isn’t as “done up” as seems to be the style on this site. I don’t say that with criticism. Actually I’m truly impressed with the apparent care in using the written word by these very eloquent people. Unfortunately, I don’t enjoy the gift of that kind of “couth”. I’m being serious, not sarcastic.



(Durwin Foster) #29

I have been really appreciating the teaching of Advaita teacher, Mooji.

(Geoffrey Edwards) #30

Hi @JimT, I am actually close to this idea in my own understanding of things, although I think not everyone here at IC agrees :slight_smile: … I did want to say that I think the point of the IC site is that one could maintain several conversations with very different base understandings. The whole integrist thing has certainly become one of the primary conversations, but I am still somewhat skeptical about it, despite my ongoing participation in those discussions and would love to see other conversations get started here. The reading of Manning’s The Minor Gesture that I have organized is part of an attempt to do something a bit different, although it is probably still too “philosophic” for your interests - Manning is a deep thinker in her own right, but her interest is less integral than the others. I don’t know the Swerve or the Atomists, and I will look them up, but I am open to other conversations… although not being retired yet, I do have limits on how much time I can devote to them!

(Geoffrey Edwards) #31

I did look these up and find in them a really interesting argument. If you were open to taking part and perhaps leading us into this a bit, perhaps an upcoming Cosmos Cafe meeting could be devoted to these ideas?

(Ann Roberts) #32

@mark OOooeeer - wish I was closer to pop in ‘physically’ for a cuppa and a chat.
Thank you for the feedback - I was a leadership development advisor within our national police Service for a while and whilst I used the Medicine Wheel Teachings as part of my coaching and workshop services, I did not fully share their Origins. I am so enjoying stepping fully into sharing them tools and protocols with no ‘hiddenness’ and such appreciation makes me feel good :slight_smile:

(Ann Roberts) #33

Mmmmmm - your words took me in all sorts of directions and which one to follow first. I suppose my first is the phrase - ‘everything is true and partial’. This is from Ken Wilber whose writing I just love - he kind of ducks under my cognition and opens up a wider vista for me. So as I read your words I say ‘yes AND … ‘’ I do this with a happy smile. At the moment my book of the month is Jude Currivan’s The Cosmic Hologram, In-formation at the Center of Creation. I would love to explore how this relates to atomistic thinking. Also I spent last year studying with Thomas Hubl( the Mystical Principles of Healing and the Mystical Principles of Living and Dying). He has a lovely phrase for Non duality called ’ not two’. So I settle into my ‘not twoness’ when I meditate and I do resonate with you words.

So where next. Maybe to this community - yes there can be what I call quite heady stuff that I don’t even know how to enter because I have not read the books that are being explore. At first I felt every so slightly intimidated - my experience touched into the fact that I had a rather shaky start to academia and wondered just how clever I was. What I so appreciate is Marco and Caroline kept the invitation to participate open to me and encouraged me to have a go. AND I am having a go and it is getting easier to be present and engaged. I am in a much more accepting place of the various themes and know that there is a willingness and wanting for exploration of beliefs, writing, viewpoints…

I will read your bio and look forward to our ongoing engagement. Wishing you a happy day.

(Ann Roberts) #34

@Geoffrey_Edwards @JimT @madrush I would love to join in :slight_smile:

(Mark Jabbour) #35

Yes! Are you in the UK? Marco & I live 20 miles apart here in Colorado, & meet in the middle when time allows. I just “officially” joined Cosmos last week after lurking for a year or so. I get what you mean. I’ve read Wilber, also, & some of the papers, but not so the long books. “Seven Arrows” is fabulous - more than a passing fad - timeless. MVM & I wove it into our chat Sunday, unfinished of course. More to come I’m sure.

(Ann Roberts) #36

I live in Scotland which is under BST - looking forward to our chat :slight_smile:

(Jim Trattner) #37

Thank you Ann for your always thoughtful replies.

Let’s take this off line. I’m at
I don’t want to bore all these brilliantly pedantic youngsters with my semi-senile aged rantings. There is no question in my mind that these are very earnest and good people who genuinely want to improve life on planet earth, for themselves and the rest of us. They also listen to each other which is very rare these days. I simply find myself uninterested with most of what they talk about, even though I barely understand it. Please let me hear back from you, if you are so inclined, as I said, I appreciate the attention.


(Jim Trattner) #38

I’m not sure who would like to join in (with a slight smile)?

(Jim Trattner) #39

No sweeter man has ever existed (hyperbole). I truly enjoy Mooji. Please, if you are interested, check out Wayne Liquorman. He speaks to me more than the others. Very plain talking and not trolling for a following which I find comforting. Thanks for the note, Durwin. I’m currently touting the book The Swerve by Stephen Greenblatt for those that preferto read their way into heaven. Wayne also has a pseudonym, Ram Tsu, you could look that up as well for a good laugh.

(Jim Trattner) #40

What I like about the “argument” as you consider it, is that there is no argument. At least coming from the non-dual premise. This stuff is difficult to talk about, especially because most people reflexively want to “argue” it. In my mind, there is no argument. What I love about Wayne is that when asked what should we do (on virtually any topic), his response is “do the next thing”. I love that. Maybe I took too much acid back in the day, but when I experienced a couple of hundred mics of very pure crystal LSD, I realized that my life "was much ado about nothing”. This realization doesn’t lend itself to leading/teaching groups about Nothing. I leave that up to the non-dual teachers who offer Satsang for those who like to sit together. This, in no way is intended, to critique, diminish, or question what Marco, Caroline, and company are doing. In fact I love what they are trying to do. Honestly, I just feel like I’m walking into an NBA basketball gym and don’t want somebody to throw me a ball because I’m embarrassed at the fact that I don’t know what to do with it. That’s my perfectly most honest answer to why I am not eager to play here. I don’t know the game, understand the rules, and feel physically ill-equipped to perform at even the simplest levels. When I was much younger, I would jump in here and try to change everybody to see things my way. Fortunately, I don’t try that shit anymore. I am ever so pleased that this effort is underway and I’m proud that I was able to touch this energy early in its growth a couple of years ago. I loved the book Geek Love that I read with the group. It was really up my alley. I have no idea how to contribute anything of worth here, except to lurk at times, read what catches my eye, and if, blessedly, someone like yourself is kind enough to say hi, I happily reply. Thanks for even noticing me.



Non-Dual teachings and why I mentioned The Swerve and the Atomists

I did look these up and find in them a really interesting argument. If you were open to taking part and perhaps leading us into this a bit, perhaps an upcoming Cosmos Cafe meeting could be devoted to these ideas?