# Cosmos Café \[4/16\] - Seeking Economic Freedom, Peace and Sanity
**URL:** https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183
**Category:** Cosmos Café
**Tags:** event, cafe, basic-income
**Created:** [April 12, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183 "2019-04-12T15:04:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 10
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Douggins](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/Douggins)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/1 "2019-04-12T15:04:51Z")
[https://i1.wp.com/www.lostrepublic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/WM-Welfare-Chart-AR-amendment-110215-jpeg1.jpg(image larger than 10 MB)](https://i1.wp.com/www.lostrepublic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/WM-Welfare-Chart-AR-amendment-110215-jpeg1.jpg)
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_ZCCNAqTgU)
[https://wp.cosmos.media/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2019/04/GMT20190416-180348\_Cosmos-Caf-mp3cut.net\_.mp3](https://wp.cosmos.media/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2019/04/GMT20190416-180348_Cosmos-Caf-mp3cut.net_.mp3)
#### Recorded 16 April 2019
The Café hosted an open discussion around the concept of basic income. What will happen if UBI happens? …if UBI does not happen? After laying down the foundations of what a basic income means on the individual, national and global scales, the cosmic crew goes much deeper and contemplates the basic assumptions of human nature; the role of quantum politics on the grand level; income vs assets; the role of artists, scientists and politicians; truth, goodness and beauty. Imaginations mapped the subtle realms and tapped the potentials of the unconscious made conscious.
In Attendance:
Mark Jabbour
Marco Morelli
John Davis
Ed Mahood
Michael Stumpf
Douglas Duff
* * *
Many voices have been speaking about the growing financial divide. . . “wealth-being” that alters our well-being. What is meant when we speak of basic income? Universal basic income (UBI) is a simple proposal to give every single member of a community a monthly cash grant, without asking them to opt in, and with no strings attached.
Basic income has entered the political stage again, this time with more eyes looking in from the outside. Technological unemployment seems to be a core driver of the discussion, promoting the need for some form of supplemental income to keep the citizens reasonably “normal” in an abnormal economy. Will BIG be discussed on the big stage? No need to NIT pick. Let’s do the MATH and put a bit more Yin into the Yang Gang and the discussion around this topic.
# Reading / Watching / Listening
- [Overview of Basic Income](https://basicincomepodcast.com/podcast/an-overview-of-the-basic-income/)
- Interview between Andrew Yang and Ben Shapiro
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42OsTANhnbs)
* * *
# Seed Questions
- Can something like the Alaskan Permanent fund scale up to the national level?
- Are any of the proposals actually universal? If we keep our focus upon the state of America, what of the remainder of the world?
- What will happen if UBI happens? What will happen if UBI doesn’t happen? What won’t happen if UBI doesn’t happen?
# Nutrients and Supplements:
#### UBI and related income proposals
- [GMI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income)
- [UBI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)
- [NIT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax)
- [APF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund)
- [VAT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax)
#### History/Informative:
- [Article on history of UBI](https://www.investopedia.com/news/history-of-universal-basic-income/)
- [BIEN -Basic Income Earth Network](https://basicincome.org/basic-income/)
#### Advocacy:
- [Richard Wolff Podcast on UBI](https://www.democracyatwork.info/eu_beyond_ubi)
- [Advocate Scott Santens](http://www.scottsantens.com/)
- [Utopia for Realists](https://www.amazon.ca/Utopia-Realists-Build-Ideal-World/dp/0316471917/ref=asc_df_0316471917/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312801550240&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10583266112766571456&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001571&hvtargid=pla-435401784645&psc=1) by Rutger Bregman
#### Against / Seeking alternatives for:
- [Forbes article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcoannunziata/2018/07/27/universal-basic-income-a-universally-bad-idea/#6c700e363269)
- [Douglas Rushkoff’s warning](https://medium.com/s/free-money/universal-basic-income-is-silicon-valleys-latest-scam-fd3e130b69a0)
# Related Forum Topics
- [money](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/money/1798)
- [Cosmos Café: How do we ask worthy questions of one another? [1/16] [Cosmos Development] - #36](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-how-do-we-ask-worthy-questions-of-one-another-1-16-cosmos-development/1635/36)
- [Generations I](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/generations-i/3135)
- [Cosmos Café: Democracy.Earth White Paper [2/13]](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-democracy-earth-white-paper-2-13/1726)
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### Author:  [@johnnydavis54](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/johnnydavis54)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/2 "2019-04-12T15:59:42Z")
A meta-comment. I think there are multiple messages here and this is much too complicated. What is Peace? What is normal? Universal Basic Income is simple, so why start out in such a muddle? What do you want us to pay attention to? This is too much like a three ring circus. I would appreciate chunking down and chunking slow. There are too many assumptions that you have put on the table that makes my head start to spin. There is way too many assumptions stuck together. I can’t make sense, much less any meaning, when too much is thrown together. UBI is a serious subject. But I dont think it should be use as a prop to parody people. I am not peaceful, nor to I consider myself normal. It seems set up to promote confusion. I am confused enough! I want coherence rather than de-coherence. I sense, and this may not be intended, a provocateur behind the scenes, trying to pull up a new plant, to see if it has started to take root.This is in the style of CNN.
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### Author:  [@Douggins](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/Douggins)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/3 "2019-04-12T16:08:39Z")
The title is a play on Andrew Yang’s recent book _The War on Normal People._ I knew that you and others have been advocating for metaphors outside of the war mentality so I opted for the word peace. I have been following along with UBI discussion for a little over five years and pleased to see this topic is making its place into the foreground. UBI is not simple . . . not at all. Perhaps the idea of $1000 per month, per person sounds nice and clear cut, but. . . say our friend Yang is elected . . . how would we even begin to implement this into a reality?
Don’t mind the guy behind this Cosmos Neural Network curtain . . . if you don’t like the output of his uncontrolled effort . . as always . . .edit at will!
If the above is too much to digest, I recommend the informative organization Basic Income Earth Network (BIEN):
[https://basicincome.org/basic-income/](https://basicincome.org/basic-income/)
EDIT (4/14):
Title changed; content overhauled!
I now see what you mean @johnnydavis54. . . after reviewing the content, I had been giving off a mixed message. I am no expert on UBI nor arranging a conversation around UBI, for that matter . . . hence why I frequently create disclaimers, announce or request assistance in clarity, in leading out these discussions. I am a reluctant host and learning to take on the role. I greatly appreciate your consistent feedback. I expect the content to change from today and into the discussion on Tuesday.
I feel that having a basic understanding of basic income will help to move Tuesday’s discussion into new territory and not get stuck in the specifics. Also, I have shifted the core of the discussion around the Andrew Yang/ Ben Shapiro recording, which provides a solid account of Yang’s platform and a civil, intelligent discussion from (mostly) opposite political views (Shapiro being a well-known conservative voice here in the states).
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### Author:  [@johnnydavis54](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/johnnydavis54)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/4 "2019-04-12T16:35:32Z")
> [@Douggins](#):
>
> how would we even begin to implement this into a reality?
How do we even begin to pay for it?
My father lived on social security until the day he died asking who is going to pay for it? Well, Dad, I said at the end of his life." You, who have voted Republican all your life, have continued to collect your Social Security while my generation, if you have your wish, will get nothing. One thing is certain, Daddy, is that you aren’t going to pay for anything. And if it weren’t for people like me, who you have such contempt for, you would be out on the street with a begging bowl. Maybe then you would shut up and stop biting the hand that feeds you."
Daddy didnt like hearing that. I am very glad that I told him what I really think. And now that I am almost the same age as when he made that stupid remark I am very glad I told him what I thought. We all have to draw upon different life experiences. I thing this is not that hard to figure out. Let them eat cake!
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### Author:  [@johnnydavis54](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/johnnydavis54)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/5 "2019-04-15T01:33:49Z")
> [@Douggins](#):
>
> I feel that having a basic understanding of basic income will help to move Tuesday’s discussion into new territory
Thanks for making good use of the feedback I offered, Doug. You have framed the discussion really well. This presents me with a clear message that I resonate with. I look forward to trying to put some time and energy into this compelling topic.
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### Author:  [@DurwinFoster](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/DurwinFoster)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/6 "2019-04-16T18:54:14Z")
Rutger Bregman is another advocate, with his book, [Utopia for Realists](https://www.amazon.ca/Utopia-Realists-Build-Ideal-World/dp/0316471917/ref=asc_df_0316471917/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312801550240&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10583266112766571456&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001571&hvtargid=pla-435401784645&psc=1), and his scolding of billionaires at Davos this last year[here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LtFnmPruU).
For another perspective on “against/seeking alternative”, there is the position of integral-libertarians [here](https://social-evolution.com/), who suggest that Distributed Income Support Cooperatives are a better way to go.
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### Author:  [@johnnydavis54](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/johnnydavis54)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/7 "2019-04-16T22:38:20Z")
Sanctuary! Sanctuary!
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/c5zzRcKlxKI/maxresdefault.jpg "Hunchback of Notre Dame 1939- "Sanctuary!" scene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5zzRcKlxKI)
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### Author:  [@johnnydavis54](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/johnnydavis54)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/8 "2019-04-19T13:23:19Z")
Cosmo-politics, multiple scales and making maps…and a room with a view…
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### Author:  [@Eduardo\_Rocha](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/Eduardo_Rocha)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/9 "2019-04-19T21:24:53Z")
Hello guys. I was watching your conversation today. I was working on a text a few weeks ago about the subject you kept today. A mixture of philosophy, capitalism and economy (economy I do not understand very well). I’m watching here, I’m going to share a piece that may be related to your conversation. There I will pollute the topics again.
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### Author:  [@Eduardo\_Rocha](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/u/Eduardo_Rocha)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/t/cosmos-cafe-4-16-seeking-economic-freedom-peace-and-sanity/3183/10 "2019-04-19T21:27:08Z")
[Philosophy and Capitalism.docx](https://www.infiniteconversations.com/uploads/infiniteconversations/original/2X/8/8501a319189ffe640bf3181baea3eef982886a55.docx) (3.7 MB)