Laurence Olivier, a childhood hero, continues to captivate in this most complex philosophical poetry. I love this ancient word -music but I doubt that I understand it particulary well, in any conventional way, nor do I imagine a robot or an infinity of monkeys typing 24/7 are going to get this-
We enjoy the mind of Shakespeare ( Hamlet?) at the edge of all maps…that undiscovered country…
And this question is the refutation of the premise upon which it is based. That’s why what Dennett has to say is so absurd. It is simply mind-boggling how much credence absurdity gets attributed to it.
And I’m OK with that too.
Stews; that is, really thick soups; is it well-known in the cooking world taste better the next day.
Well, if they managed Macbeth (Shakespeare’s shortest), I might think about giving them an appointment. In the meantime, there’s a lot of fun to be had.
Great piece. I think this essay sums-up our conversation quite nicely, and with a stellar use of vocabulary to boot. I would almost suggest checking out this guys other work, but that would lead us further into the Void.
I am really fascinated by internal process and internal states of the participants here. When we co-model, I speculate that we are doing consciously what we are usually doing unconsciously. When we model, we bring attention, as you display in your comment, on our meta-attention. This is very subtle and usually out of awareness but I believe we can train our attention and become more flexible and resilient as a result.
Asking about qualities is exactly what the CIA does with it’s remote viewers. Does it have a size or a shape? Whereabouts is that? The questions require neutrality to prevent contamination from the interviewer. Good psychics are people who know how to get out of the way and pay attention. I think we are connected to vast amounts of information and we do need good filters, as you mentioned previously.
So maybe we can decide when to take off our habitual filters and take on filters that are less in-formed by habits. There may not be, as Peirce once noted, any laws of nature, just habits!
And maybe we can allow through our filters, larger amounts of what is going on in God’s Mind, without getting ungrounded and overwhelmed or too diffuse. We need to learn how to access the benefits of trance without going into coma! This is, I’m suggesting, what Gebser meant by working with efficient forms of Archaic, Magical, Mythic and of Mental. We can have a target, focus attention, take a perspective and then allow whatever to come through to have a form, then we can interpret that form and find relationships with other formations. We can play at the edge of our maps without getting bogged down in top heavy conceptualizations which screen out our experience and reduce our capacity to hold multiple realities. New narratives, not just frozen myths, can emerge.
I get a really Star Treky feel to all our of our imaginations. This is true, I believe, to our time and place in history.
" Humankind cannot bear too much reality."-T. S. Eliot
I just had what I would call an irruption! I recalled a movie from childhood that deeply frightened me. Here is a brief clip.
After reviewing Nagarjuna’s non dual map, I begin to see through the binds and double binds of my childhood. I’m feeling into the lightness that is released ‘as if’ we are able collectively to let go of the double binds we find ourselves in the grip of. The children of light, they shall abide!
I want to add all of these images to my expanding map. We can hold multiple realities. The Serendipity Sisters are singing a sweet tune!
I am still gathering my thoughts on the Void Scale…
I notice that the more I think about it, the more slowly my mind moves, as if I am approaching an event horizon, which never quite arrives. Time is dilating; space is collapsing. Theta to delta-range waveforms fall and rise. A familiar yet mysterious scent—Eau de Ayn Sof, perhaps—breathes softly on my neck.
I wonder, when I die, will the information of my being be conserved like an energetic tattoo on the skin of a black hole? Will every thought and feeling I ever had be preserved in plasma? Will an AI ‘magic engine’ someday recreate my complex patterns of mind as a virtual personality—a “recognized inferior ersatz”—for the edification and entertainment of my descendents and admirers?
I am looking forward to a vacation—maybe that is all the Void I need!
Fortunately, I will soon be traveling through space and time with my family on a road trip. We are going places!
As we drive across the continent, I will continue pondering this question of the Void. How to proceed with conceptual “groundwork” on the abgrund phenomenon?
Ed, I think you’ve already dug in your spade and loosened up some rocks and dirt with your thoughts on ThoHU V’BoHU and AYN SOPf. I would love to hear more, hopefully in a future café.
Fortunately, we have a cluster of concepts to work with for getting a handle on Void Scale phenomena, from root mythology to existential philosophy to to avante-garde poetry to theoretical physics. A few signifiers we might contemplate:
Emptiness / Sunyata
The Causal Body
Trikaya Doctrine (Dharmakaya)
The Crossed-Out God
This is nowhere near an exhausitve list. And I am definitely not saying that all of these no-things are equivalent. But I would say there is a negative principle shared by these various concepts that could be drawn upon if we wish to include Void Scale perspectives in our meta-maps—even approaching the Void as a kind of ‘anti-experience’ that corresponds to certain states of consciousness (or in a deeper conception, all states).
We recently published in Metapsychosis a review of a book put out by Void Front Press titled Sustain/Decay: A Philosophical Investigation of Drone Music and Mysticism —which I would recommend checking out in this regard.
However, I am aware that all these cogitations remain rather abstract.
I am also still puzzling over the idea of information as Jude Currivan uses the word. Like Ed, I have not yet fully drunk the kool-aid of her Fundamental Postulates of Infodynamics—much as I appreciate (and am impressed by) her overall presentation.
I think it’s fascinating to imagine the quantum integrity of the universe down to the Plank Scale of reality-definition. Not even a black hole can destroy this information. Here is how Stephen Hawking puts it:
“I propose that the information is stored not in the interior of the black hole as one might expect, but on its boundary, the event horizon,” Hawking said at a conference back in August 2015. “The message of this lecture is that black holes ain’t as black as they are painted. They are not the eternal prisons they were once thought. Things can get out of a black hole both on the outside and possibly come out in another universe.”
So far so good for the new physics of consciousness…
But we should take the “grounding” of eternalistic ideas in the language of physics with a grain of salt. The article where I found the above quote goes on to inform:
The idea is that when charged particles get sucked into a black hole, their information leaves behind a kind of two-dimensional holographic imprint on the event horizon. This means that while all the physical components of an object would be so totally obliterated by a black hole encounter, its blueprint lives on.
So as light particles (photons) are ejected by the black hole - a phenomenon known as Hawking radiation - they can pick up the information blueprint from the event horizon and carry it with them back into the Universe. “The information about ingoing particles is returned, but in a chaotic and useless form,” Hawking said in August. “This resolves the information paradox. For all practical purposes, the information is lost.”
Hawking, famously, is also rather pessimistic about humanity’s future prospects with respect to AI. I’ll just offer a few additional thoughts on this topic:
I do welcome a the evolution of an AI that can serve as a kind of media “immune system”—very much in the sense, I believe, that Sloterdjik envisions for his immunological spheres.
Ironically or not, I would like AI to minimize the deleterious effects of technology on my life, much in the way you have been speaking about filters—or ‘islands’ of sanity.
Of course, the power of attention itself is the primary filter—however, I think Peter is also onto something when he talks about the “monstrous.” Where are we when we are in the monstrous? Couldn’t our capacities for sustained attention use some technological support? If AI is powering the onslaught of marketing mechanisms vying for our attention, then couldn’t we use some counteracting AI to preserve a sacred space (or conscious cone?) of free thought?
The wonderful poet Phil Rockstroh has, I believe, a keen perception and tragic feeling for the monstrous. This is the space of the discarnate soul. This is where the Soul confonts the Void of its distorted projections into space and time.
What else can I say at the moment?
The Void appears, but it cannot be represented.
The Void is the unthought out of which (picture Jude Currivan’s mellifluous hand gestures) manifestation occurs.
The Void ate the Tetralemma’s leftovers for lunch.
The Void is where I go in dreamless sleep, and death; it’s the mirror where I spy the reflection of my face before I was born.
The Void is not pure.
The Void is the inner ring of the Cosmic donut. The only way out is through…and you will never leave the surface!
Speaking of which: probably the most useful takeaway from this week, for me, is the distinction between ‘Universe’ and ‘Cosmos.’ I have somehow always conflated the two, but I think it makes a lot of sense (especially if we’re talking about multiverses, each a thought in the Mind of God) to distinguish between a time-and-space-bound universe, such as this one at 13.8 billion years old, which contains the galaxy that contains our solar system that contains our planet, and so on, and the time-free, space-free Cosmos that contains all possible universes and phenomena, by definition.
That works for me.
And yet, we would still need the Void as an aspect of the Cosmos, just as the Cosmos is a manifestation of the Void.
And…we would need some kind of Intelligence.
Will alone is not enough to evolve a universe, I now believe. Power presupposes purpose. Even information has to be interpreted, which requires some form of intelligence—a priori (another unfashionable phrase)—that is far from artificial.
And sure, we might code a Johnbot—who would be listening, if not experiencing anything in particular—to ask, “And whereabouts is that Intelligence? Does it have a size or a shape?”
And this might recall the poetry of being: like that angelic Joni Mitchell performance; or like a lucid dream…a ghost that melts the machine.
We may be caught in a Devil’s Bargain, but we’re playing God’s game.
St. Joan was executed in Rouen in 1431. When I visited Rouen a decade ago, I knew vaguely that she had died there, knew about her trial, mainly through the play by George Bernard Shaw.
After dinner at a pleasant cafe, I stepped outside, while my friend paid the bill, and got an odd feeling. It was towards evening and I took a deep breath. I felt something like a magnetic attraction, pulling me forcefully across grassy area, and I walked without thinking, about a hundred feet and noticed a bunch of flowers and a plague which declared this was the spot where Joan was burned at the stake. I got a weird deja vu, a vast feeling in the pit of my stomach and a wave of solidarity with the patron saint of France. I felt in contact with that sixth sense, for I had been there before.
Question: Will you swear to speak the truth upon those things which are asked you concerning the faith, which you know?
Joan: Concerning my father and my mother, and what I have done since I took the road to France, I will gladly swear to tell the truth. But concerning my revelations from God, these I have never told or revealed to anyone, save only to Charles, my King. And I will not reveal them to save my head.
We have many hungry ghosts in our collective imaginations. I have learned that Descartes wrote his famous Meditations at the end of the Thirty Years War. He had seen Europe torn apart by religious fanaticism and he knew magical elements were powerful and likely to disrupt the stability of fragile nation-states. He worked as a spy ( according to Jason Jorjani) for the Inquisition. It was important, for him and many intellectuals, to stop the resurgence of magic.
As eager to suppress magic was Kant. It must be remembered that Kant had studied and written about Swedenborg, the greatest Psychic of his day, with ridicule and fascination. Kant’s philosophy is a rigorous attempt to put the Mental on a firm foundation, but his ridicule of Swedenborg is mixed with unease, and many of us believe that he may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
I try to piece together all of these different mappings of time, at different scales, from Hollywood movies, to visits to museums, from AI to sci fi, from books to dreams and dreams about dreams…
I bring up these digressions as we are on a great battle field of that war between the deficient Mental and all the structures that went before. Can we enter a phase space that will shift us to that higher octave Gebser intuited?
It is hoped that our foray into these liminal zones can re-orient us and create a greater coherence than we had before we embarked on this group project. It is towards that desired possibility that I hope we can gravitate, beyond the horizon, just above our heads.
As I tune into the traumas of our past(s), without re-activating those traumas, I feel I have received guidance from this experiment we have been conducting and expect we are co-evolving a richer relationship to Deep Time.
What have I learned so far? I realized, after viewing the session, that I am actually trying to map between Clock time and Dream-time, trying to bridge dimensions. This is something that I am learning how to do and thank everyone here for contributing to my growing sense of confidence that I/we can re-connect our maps to the Territory. We are the Territory.
Yes that is a useful takeaway for me as well… For so long I have suffered that tension between Cosmos and Universe, searching for the next lover, computer, book, workshop, to avoid that tension. At the edge, before we leap into the space between cosmologies, I recommend that we find something pretty to recite…
My love is like a red, red rose…or a song by Edith Piaf…
From this list, what are you most drawn to?
And when I am aware that all these cogitations remain rather abstract, what would you like to have happen?
And breathes softly on my neck…and when breathes softly… on my neck…how softly?
And is there a relationship between all of these musings and…
And I don’t doubt for a moment that you most likely were.
A friend of mine was stationed near the French-German border, and one afternoon the USO had organized a bus trip across the border into the Alsace. They were driving harmlessly along until my friend started telling everyone on the bus what was coming up around the bend and relating historical anecdotes about this particular area. He realized he had been there before, too.
If you want an excellent combination of such phenomena and dreams in particular, I would recommend Arthur Guirdham’s We Are One Another (well, that is, if you haven’t already read it ).
The fear of magic can provoke great evil, perhaps even greater evil that is perceived in magic. This is one of the real issues with the deficient mental, to which both Descartes and Kant were susceptible. Swedenborg himself is a fascinating person to look into more as well. It is from Swedenborg that I got the habit of putting honey in my coffee when I have a sore throat and cold. He drank his coffee that way all the time (black, with honey), but I am only drawn to the sweetness when I’m ill. Go figure.
Mini Currivan update (in spite of the fact that the “system” is telling me that I’m being pushy, having posted more than 28% of the replies here):
I finished Part 1 of Currivan’s Cosmic Hologram. I’m not a whole lot smarter than I was when I started. I have realized that it will not just do to simply read it, so I’ve decided to finish it – to get a feel and an overview – and then go back through it more slowly and in detail, for three reasons:
She, like too many “mathy” types, is not really aware of what she is expecting of her readers when she goes on about equations and “what they say”. This needs closer attention, but it is directly relevant to the three More seed questions posted above.
I have been struck by how often she notes – mostly as asides or afterthoughts – how very much at the beginning we are of all this, how speculative, it appears, a lot of her “assertions” (for this is how she expresses them) are. This is important, I think, because the underlying idea – that “all of this” is (somehow) “information” – has farther reaching consequences than may be apparent at first.
The impression is gelling that this is a book that would much better be read in a group than alone, but it is, for the moment, just an impression. It has the potential to be distracting as well. I think we’re making sound progress on coming to grips with space and time and there’s no need to tip over the apple cart when it’s overloaded.
Again, just an update. The topics/themes/issues aren’t going anywhere, that’s for sure.
Sometimes yes. I find driving long distances, even when there’s commotion in the car is a yoga-like attention-fixer. I get some of my best thinking done behind the wheel. Regardless: have a great trip, drive safely, and return renewed.
OK, I’ll start kicking around and refining some ideas so that they’re (at least more) ready when the time is ripe. (Technical question: Am I correct in assuming that the sharing of visuals is a challenge in a Zoom conference? There would be visuals involved, most definitely, but I can also provide them, say, in PDF form prior to the session so that everyone has something to look at.)
Thanks for the links. I’ve had the drone-music piece on my to-be-read list for a while now, but things have simply encroached, but now I’ll reorder the list. I appreciate the Hawking link as well. He’s always been too “mental” for me, but in small doses over time I find I’m warming to a lot more of what he has to say. This will no doubt be helpful. My puzzling with Currivan still remains (see other post, the “mini update”), but I’m working on it.
Sometimes our café sessions have that black-hole effect: I go in just fine but am returned in a “chaotic and useless form”. Still, the blueprint does remain and provides a reference framework for regeneration, too. As you say, "But we should take the “grounding” of eternalistic ideas in the language of physics with a grain of salt. " I couldn’t agree more. After all, the Abgrund is also a Grund; it also serves a purpose.
About two hundred or so years ago the word “awful” meant literally, to be full of awe; the word “awesome”; that is just having some, was it’s opposite. In the interim, these words have switched places in the language. In it’s root meaning “awe” meant “dread, terror”. It is a very numinous word. I think Peter, our in-resident contrarian, is picking up on that in his own, not-too-subtle way. We should remember that fear tends to dissipate quickly when confronted. It is fairly resilient though. We probably shouldn’t forget that either. I find your list of reflections on the Void very much to the point.
I read his book on the Cathars, a fascinating read. Like most therapists, Guidham, became accepting of alternate ways of knowing, after an initial phase of skepticism. I believe most therapists start out their careers with a care and concern for helping people but their training quickly disrupts that. After graduate school, immersed in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, their talent for helping people is punished. They can loose their licenses without conformity to the grid. They become agents of the State.
The contempt for humanity gets promoted, along with elaborate drug recipes, that rearrange the senses, in ways to inhibit and control, the vaster intelligence of the kinesthetics of a healthy, fully functioning person. Our practices of using pharmaceutical drugs, obstructs access to healthy Magical and Meta-mental practices, and creates a lot of depression and anxiety. Iatrogenic disease is epidemic. By attacking the previous structures while suppressing the higher octave, we are creating conditions for massive breakdowns of the immune systems,
Therapists, like Guirdham, has stepped out on a limb and showed us some of the anomalies of the Mind. I look forward to reading the book you mention. There are other therapists I admire for doing so, but they are a small majority of the profession.
I had wanted very badly to help, during the AIDS crisis, a population, that was held in enormous contempt, by the larger society. And I did help but it was very destabilizing. I saw a doctor, in front of an audience of gay men, tell them they should be willing to give their lives to science. I also knew men who took money from pharmaceutical companies and then flushed the experimental drugs down the toilet. For every anomaly that emerged, the experts always added some obscure update, to re-direct attention away from the weird inconsistencies, in their protocols and practices. It was clear to me in their use of language, that they chose metaphorical constructs that were militaristic and dogmatic. The war on the Immune system continues to create more fatalities than cures. Mental Deficient science uses deficient forms of Magic.
The lies and disinformation, that was visited upon that community, had a lot of ironies. Unlike predictions made at the time, that the fragile Gay movement would be crushed by the epidemic, just the opposite occurred. We gathered strength and reversed destructive trends by deconstructing thought forms of the Scientistic State and Church, and articulated alternate ways of knowing. We were willing to face the havoc, so that we could reorganize a more coherent living arrangement. I was part of that grass roots underground.
Like all movements for social change , there was lots of intensity, conflicts, doubts, among gays and straights, and women and men, and different ethnicities clashed with ethical norms and various levels of poverty, contributed to chaotic attractors. As a person, on the ground, I learned upfront and personal how to re-negotiate in violent situations. We had to deal with bomb threats almost every day!
So I suggest, that our group learning circles, with some of the access we now have to one another’s best efforts, that we can become more adept than our ancestors at harmonizing vast amounts of disinformation. There is a lot of noise! The useful information. I believe, we can, point out, and tune into the intensification of consciousnesses, fasten our seat belts, and actually enjoy riding the next wave, as we slide through that narrow opening in the curve of the Klein bottle, where we are simultaneously contained and uncontained. You are your own metaphor.
DEATH is the great ground that puts our complex conceptualizations in perspective.
What I am most drawn to in these incipient Void Studies is some greater facility with death, dying, and loss that connects the negative principle with a positive one. I am interested in a ‘metamodern taoism’ that incorporates processes of death, entropy, and information loss into constitutive life cycles.
I would like to explore these cycles at different scales, which could be nested (holonic), fractal, or holographic, depending on the model in use. I imagine we could scan from quantum to terrestrial to cosmic scales, from quarks to humans to black holes, and find isomorphic patterns (with important differences) in play. Such is the poetry of the Cosmos!
“Awesome” would be not be an inappropriate word.
How what we might call (but don’t necessarily have to call) “information” is created, conserved, transmitted, and destroyed—and how it’s perceived, intuited, known, and translated—strike me as important and fascinating questions.
The field effects of spiritually powerful events, individuals, and groups, organizations, or movements, seem like a big part of the integral tapestry, as well.
I would like poetry to happen.
@achronon, to your technical question, actually we CAN present visuals during our Zoom sessions, and we can also present audio and video, by using the screen sharing feature. You would just need to have your visuals open on your desktop when you share your screen.
I look forward to picking up Currivan’s book when it’s back in at the local library. (Hmm…I wonder who in town currently has it checked it out?) Thank you, all!
I, too, wondered about death. I wondered if human love transcended death and I set out to discover that undiscovered country. I, now, consider that a rather provincial question. There is much more than the human experience engaged in a transient transcendence/immanence.
They say that energy isn’t lost but changes size, shape, location, form. I am convinced that in-formation isn’t lost either. Information, according to Bateson ,rides piggy back upon energy. We are, as the poet sings, star dust, we are golden.
I built my ship of death, following the lead of D.H. Lawrence, and I have sailed with it to various islands of peace, with strange new life forms and new variations on older themes. I have met men that I had seen struggle in hospital beds, in the direst of circumstances, gasping for breath, writhing in fear. I have seen them on the other side of topo-dimensional figures, radiant and wise, and they have shown me lots of interesting things about light and strange loops and the heart of our collective darkness.
About death and entropy. I doubt that our science is even remotely close to understanding entropy as the physicists expound on these so called ‘laws’. There may not be any constants, just habits. We may need to do our science all over again, as our current reality seems deeply impoverished. I try to avoid premature cognitive commitment. There is an interplay of concepts and percepts at every level. We can model this interplay at different levels. We can coordinate this interplay between levels with our attention. Ultimately, our attention, as I hope I have started to clarify, through our map making, is a kind of ‘touch’.
That’s always a question when a book one is looking for is not there. I found out once:
Once upon a time in a land far away, I took a course called “Oral Reading”. We learned about the International Phonetic Alphabet, including pitches and such, and all of us were assigned one of John Berryman’s Dream Songs which (as a kind of final) had to transcribe fully and duplicate for distribution and then we had to read it to the class while they followed along. We were then expected to present our interpretation which should have duly corresponded to the precise reading we just offered.
I was stuck on one of the lines of my song. The library had but one book on Berryman and his Dream Songs, so in desperation, I even talked another my contemporary poetry professor to use my assigned song in a class session. He and the rest of the class and I agonized over it, but we didn’t make much headway. The only little bit of help I got was a side remark from my professor which he had come up with after having lunch with a colleague.
The day came for me to read my poem and present my interpretation. The reading of the line in question was, of course, weak, and I noted that some rather inconsiderate person had borrowed the only Berryman reference from the library and though it was weeks overdue, it had not been returned.
“Yes, I know,” said my professor, “I can be that way sometimes.”
Did not know where to place this one. This is a stellar use of space to explain “deep time” and can be relevant to any thread here. I divided into segments based upon the quotes, but the entire project is worth watching.
“Before sea or land, before even sky
Which contains all,
Nature wore only one mask–
Since called Chaos.”
–Ovid (Ted Hughes translation)
… the geographies over which we are so suicidally passionate are, on this scale of events, fleeting expressions on the earth’‘s face.’’
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
–Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5
The hills are shadows, and they flow
From form to form, and nothing stands;
They melt like mist, the solid lands,
Like clouds they shape themselves and go.
–Alfred Lord Tennyson, In Memoriam, Section 123
"How little do we know of the business of the earth, not to speak of the universe; of time, not to speak of eternity."
Thanks for sharing the Deep Time poetry, Doug, but I am not hopeful about brain implants. This inspires dread in me, instead of hope.
My big problem with this is that it is so far is that the military is funding it. And how do we decide what is illness or genius? If Martin Luther King, Jr. was given zanex he probably would not have gotten so upset by the great injustices he saw around him. He would not have needed to come up with a Dream.
Most people who create anything useful or beautiful have registered grief, anger and a wide range of ecstatic emotions. How can a Shakespeare generate complex poetry if he has implants protecting him from negative states of mind? By- passing symptoms isn’t going to evolve us towards more complex and coherent order.
Symptoms are energy/in-formations trapped in Time. We need to find a bodily location, and give to the hidden and the disgraced, a voice. Those who have been thrown out of the Village are not able to go back to it. They need much more than implants in their brains sponsored by the US military.
I had terrible PTSD symptoms. The only method that worked to alleviate them was the Metaphor work of David Grove. I have initiated the use of some of his methodology here. I want to develop an ecological method of creating safe and creative group coherence experience. Comparing maps is much better for the efficient Mental, than implants. Most AI comes out of severe mental deficiency.
Alternate ways of knowing are many, as many as there are persons on the planet. Implants in the brain I fear would inhibit evolutionary initiatives and thwart the creative tension that flesh is heir to. Implants would probably support the status quo.
When I was growing up, homosexuality and masturbation were considered, by the American Medical Association, mental illness. A century ago, Hysteria was common condition, especially among women.That women couldn’t vote or control their lives was also a big challenge. I think we need to re-think this and stop medicalizing humanity. This might be a good topic to discuss.
Good point. The article states it is an alternative for when medication and therapy just aren’t working. My reasoning for seeing the good in this lies within the same field as @patanswer’s post on ex-Facebook basher, CEO/founder of Social Capital. We cannot stop the behemoth, at least at this time. Military funding is present and presently increasing, at least here in the US, at least for now, so why not play the game with our own agenda? This research is in the right direction, or at least a step away from weapon development…but what do I know…it could be seen as propaganda for a healthier military, thus more funding to keep the other research going…or just a smoke-screen for the real, “evil” research being done behind closed doors. This is a case of the game creators playing their own game, maybe…