Cosmos Café: Fractal Time in Everyday Life [11/21]

Date Recorded

November 21, 2017


Hosted by @madrush


Members of the Infinite Conversations forum explore consciousness, time, science, culture, and other interrelated topics. One of the key inquiries of this talk has to do with how we live and experience (or “apply”) transtemporal consciousness realizations in everyday life—through civics, parenting, elder care, cultural politics, gender relations, creative work, spiritual practices, etc.

This talk also riffs on themes raised by Michael Garfield’s Future Fossils podcast episode #45 with Kerri Welch: “Fractal Synchronicity & the Future of Time,” especially their discussion of correlations between philosopher Jean Gebser’s structures of consciousness (archaic, magic, mythic, mental, integral) and normal cyclical brainwave states experienced by most people everyday (delta, theta, alpha, beta…).

What are the fractal qualities of our dialogue itself? How are we subjects and objects of the same performative research? What do spheres, donuts, klein bottles, and mobius strips have to do with it?

This is talk is presented raw and unedited. Listen at your own risk. You may never experience time the same way again.

Reading (for background, context, themes, ideas…)

Seed Questions

  • Given the obvious disparity between modes of expression and subjective reaction to those expressions, how much “science” do we need? Do we need any at all?

  • How might we go about finding a way for science and art (or the hard and fuzzy sciences), etc. to better communicate with each other? Or stated somewhat differently: What do we need to do to promote inter- and transdisciplinary work?

  • What practical consequences can I draw from presentations, such as Brown’s and Welch’s? Or even more poignantly, as Marco put it, “This is definitely a kind of performative research, where we ourselves are subject and object. Who are we performing for? How are we entangled?”

  • The question of death and the evolution of the individual soul, which Arthur Young thought to be the point of the seventh level (more so than a collective consciousness), could be fruitful to consider from this polyphasic, transtemporal, meta-physically embodied point of view. (From Marco in the “Reflexive Universe” thread.)

Potential inputs & backstory stuff


Is this a wiki page that we can edit or am I just too thick-headed to know what I’m doing … again? (It’s like that “expanded text” feature that I have no clue how to manifest.)

One suggestion: “Books mentioned” could be changed to “Potential input sources”, under which I would include the Kerri Welch interview and both of the William Brown videos that @johnnydavis54 has provided. It would not be necessary for everyone to have listened to all of all of them, partial intake would suffice, I think. There is simply additional information on themes and sources that most of us are familiar with, e.g., Gebser, space, time, Young.

Under “Seed Questions”, I could imagine perhaps something like “Given the obvious disparity between modes of expression and subjective reaction to those expressions, how much “science” do we need? Do we need any at all?” But corollary to that, I’d also suggest, “How might we go about finding a way for science and art (or the hard and fuzzy sciences), etc. to better communicate with each other?”

I think it is becoming increasingly clear that both Welch and Brown (but Kastrup as well) are openly and clearly asking us to dig into our own, personal assumptions and presuppostions that are driving our own explorations. (I recall a nice chat @madrush and I had one Tuesday evening a few moons ago about “So what do you believe?” that has taken on new significance in light of recent conversations and discussions.

Of course, these are merely suggestions … there are enough of you bright, intense souls out there that could forge this into something more substantial.

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Hi Ed, it’s a wiki now. I forgot that step. Good suggestions! I can update the post after I take care of a couple other items, or feel free to give it a try…


Though not impossible, it is not likely I will be able to make the conference call tomorrow. In which case, I humbly submit an interesting “back-story” on conceptions of time to the mix:

Time in History, G.J. Whitrow (1988)

Written from the convention in which all history leads to the modern West, the introductory chapters are yet an informative reminder that time-reckoning, where considered important enough to occur is culture-dependent. By the end, the author does convey to the Western reader how much is taken for granted in our granulation of the temporal.


Question: didn’t we all (@johnnydavis54, @madrush, @Geoffreyjen_Edwards) somewhere somewhen sort of intimate that it might be worthwhile to perhaps start a communal reading list, or the like.

TJ’s suggestion here made me think of it again.

I could imagine something like a wiki-page that is a kind of annotated bibliography of must-reads, etc., maybe part of kind of library of sorts for the co-op or so. (Of course, it would even be better if it weren’t just an alphabetical list, or a subject/theme/topic list with alphabetic entries … though that would be better than just a big list.)

Does anyone else remember that? Not that it matters all that much. Maybe I’m just thinking out loud again. What d’y’all think?

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Great idea. I imagine this would also foster a sense of agency as we view the list and determine for ourselves where we want to concentrate our attention.

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Here is the aforementioned reading list wiki:

It is not at all exhaustive, but just a few of the titles that have come up lately.

If you bookmark the page, you will be able to access it from the menu under your user icon (top right of the page).

Please feel free to edit and add to this page! I will also add titles as they come up or occur to me…


About 75% chance of attending from 1-2ish…and 2-3ish I will be driving, so might still listen in but feel the driving audio would affect the recording quality (suppose I could mute on my end). Anything I need to know about the Zoom process other than signing in with link above?

Thank you for providing this cafe @madrush and crew! Such a pleasure to be participating, even if but only sending a few :heart:'s and ideas your direction.


Sounds good, @Douggins.

Go ahead and test the link and make sure the audio and video settings (in the Zoom app preferences) are set correctly. There is a “test my audio / video” function which is helpful for troubleshooting.

Headphones can be good if your speakers create feedback noise, but they don’t always seem to be required.

You can mute yourself on your end, or I can mute you from the admin.

Even if you can only make it part of the time, it would be good to see you. As a “café” and not a formal academic seminar, it seems appropriate for people to come and go as life allows.


As our topics have taken their twists and turns, I am reminded of strange loops, and stranger things still!

Optional pre-cafe listening… :coffee: :sunny:

“An aroused spirit is greatly to be feared…” ~Sun Ra


where is the link to this event?

Scroll up!

The discussion we shared (along with reading and listening from this site and related material during the past couple weeks) has taken me into a realm previously unimaginable. I do enjoy the ability of this group of gatherers to unabashedly latch onto esoteric ideas yet still remain in tune and unattached.
Just last week, after a series of mini-revelations and realizations, this realm was finally “figured out”… a new framework discovered and applied…then a new idea arises and the previous world view is but a memory. Currently, Kerri Welch is the most applicable.

As I find myself searching for connection this holiday weekend in an all too familiar realm, I meet rather than retreat from the creative application of this new realm. As the Sun Ra-ses, we too rise.

Wishing you all well!

Found these today while browsing:

  1. We admit the fact that our ordinary human condition, based on the dualistic perception of life, is a stubborn habit that we normally conceal from ourselves through denial.
  2. We begin to look and ask for guidance in our effort to cultivate a new outlook that embraces the spiritual vision of the interconnectedness of all existence. The means of doing so are varied–from supportive spiritual environments to uplifting books.
  3. We initiate positive changes in our behavior which affirm that new outlook. It is not enough to read and talk about spiritual principles. Spirituality is intrinsically a practical affair.
  4. We practice self-understanding; that is, we accept conscious responsibility for noticing our automatic programs and where they fall short of our new understanding of life.
  5. We make a commitment to undergoing the catharsis, or purification, necessary to change our old cognitive and emotional patterns and stabilize the new outlook and disposition, replacing the egoic habit of splitting everything into irreconcilable opposites with an Integrative attitude.
  6. We learn to be flexible and open to life so that we can continue to learn and grow on the basis of our new outlook.
  7. We practice humility in the midst of our endeavors to mature spiritually. In this way we avoid the danger of psychic inflation.
  8. We assume responsibility for what we have understood about life and the principles of spiritual recovery, applying our understanding to all our relationships so that we can be a benign influence in the world.
  9. Guided by our new outlook, we work on the integration of our multiply divided psyche.
  10. We cultivate real self-discipline in all matters, great and small.
  11. We increasingly practice spiritual communion, which opens us to that dimension of existence where we are all connected. Through such communion and through continued growth in self- understanding, we become transparent to ourselves.
  12. We open ourselves to the possibility of bliss, the breakthrough of the transcendental reality into our consciousness, whereby the ego principle is unhinged and we fully recover our spiritual identity. Through this awakening the world becomes transparent to us and we are made whole.

Jaron Lanier discussing new book, new ideas


My response to Lanier report is mixed, as I have followed him over the years, my hopes for this media boom has more or less fizzled. I have withdrawn from FB and feel much healthier, I use you tube a lot but have bad moments when I am looking for something to hold my attention and realize the best thing for me to do is turn it off and go to sleep.But then I dream more often about computer screens than I do angels or demons.

I hope the video recording appears soon so we can start a new thread. I can start to review what Patterns may start to emerge. I look for pattern and meta-pattern and if I notice something it is usually not based upon my memory of a cafe conversation. My land based, real time sensory acuity is of little use to me. Memories captured without a sense of a digitized record of the meeting are more and more difficult to keep stable. My plea for perceptual modeling is becoming more intense as I sense the old sensoriam is re-organizing around a new attractor that is not breath based. Without a breath based awareness it is difficult to create a boundary, and I have found impossible to create a momentum, to have a relationship at all.This bodes ill for a future humanity. If we cant breath together, in close proximity and make joint attention, we cant make joint decisions. We can use words to create treaties perhaps but the ambiguities we need to make poetry is lost.

I rely more on the technology to record as does a photograph an event like a visit to a museum or a birthday party. The actual occasion because it was carried upon a digital wave doesn’t become apart of my episodic or autobiographical memory. There was no touch or smell or shared environment to recall. And the subtle rhythms that are distorted in these asynchronous events which makes the distinction between day and night no longer a part of the field effect, amplifies the sense of isolation. Hence my wish to review the video before I comment further comes out of a digitized blind spot, not from the actual physical apparatus, which I can no longer trust with great confidence.

I believe already the capacity to hold a strong complex memory in the sensorium is starting to disappear. If you dont save the event on your hard drive you will have no proof it ever happened. Autobiographical memories are the first to go in dementia, the older episodic memory, using a fork, turning on a lamp, recalling a tune, lasts longer. As I have worked a lot with older persons with dementia I am amazed to see subtle signs of it occurring in younger and younger people who seem not to remember who Janis Joplin was. Of course I look at present day, Taylor Swift, and see many others who were just like her. We see the parade of Types. Another flash in the pan. But it is the duty of the young to wallow in quick cults of fashion and the duty of the mature to stay in touch with the much slower cultural surround.

So without the recording to review I find the patterns that I relied upon most of my life to orient socially are of no use whatever. But with the video, which I will watch, I can notice the bifurcation points and the various alternatives that could have happened but didn’t happen. I am modeling the effects of an artifact.

I recall Artaud’s famous remark about the saints signalling at us through the flames. Now we are signalling sadly through the digitized rows of tiny boxes with oversized voices emanating from a computer screen.

I’m not sure which is more awful but I take contact however way I can and say thank you. I am willing to experiment and play at the edges of this social medium. What have I got to lose? But I dont think it is nearly as interesting as a lucid dream and the Virtual reality ( whatever that is) is as superficial as a swim without any water.

Fuerstien was a great Gebserian but he passed away before the internet really took off. I dont know that the world from which his excellent guidance pertains is around anymore.

We are rapidly no longer becoming what we were becoming.

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I’m about to post the recording, but I need a title for it. We talked about a lot things and I don’t know how to sum it up!

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Practical “agency”…?

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That’s close! How about “Practical Applications of Fractal Time” …or… “Fractal Time in the Real World”?

I think the deepest question we explored had to do with how we “apply” (or live) a transtemporal consciousness realization in everyday life—through parenting, elder care, cultural politics, gender relations, etc. Does that sound right?


Maybe we should title it after we view it again?

I need to set it before uploading, since it gets encoded into the meta-data of the files…which can be updated later, but saves time to set at the outset.

I will post it shortly with one of the titles above, and if anyone has a better suggestion, please feel free to add it here.