Cosmos Café: How do we ask worthy questions of one another? [1/16] [Cosmos Development]

If you want to learn about economics dont talk to economists. I have known a few socially and over a beer they will admit they are bullshitting an ‘expertise’ that they dont have. They are, as a group, just as prone to bankruptcy, as physicians are to poor health. How else could none of them have predicted the last recession? If you want to know what is going on economically, ask shop keepers, taxi drivers, skip Paul Krugman and anything put out by the New Times.

Good selections, Ed, especially The Worldly Philosophers.

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Agreed. And when I reflect back over my nickel-list, only Shumacher and Aperowitz had formal training, but it was old-school and I don’t think either of them drank the kool-aid. Smith and Marx were acclaimed-by-consensus to be economists after-the-fact.

We have two “economists” here in Germany who did predict the 2008 fiasco, but I don’t find them overly convincing overall. Since they were a couple of the few in the business who saw it coming, they sort of let it go to their heads; they’re not quite as keen-eyed as they once were.

I’m with you though … anybody in a business who has to deal directly with the public are much better candidates as advice-givers.

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Excellent little video, John, thanks for this.

I found it ironically fascinating that the clip was produced by the Stiftungsverband für die deutsche Wirtschaft, a kind of independent think-tank for new ideas that is funded heavily by some of the very heavy-weights who are being undermined by the developments that Michel is talking about.

His take on the roots and rise of capitalism are quite interesting as well, and I think he really hit the nail on the head that we don’t get any media coverage on all the good things that are going on because no one is getting killed and it challenges the currently accepted model of human nature.

I am glad that there is so much happening in so many places, but the subtext to much of what he’s saying is that we’d better not wait for governments or industries or corporations or whomever to get on board. The time has come to use the resources we have available (and the internet is a good one here) to find out what else is going on and get on board.

For as curmudgeony as I normally am, I haven’t completely given up hope, but as the Germans say, “hope is the last to die.”

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Me three on Heilbroner. Clearly and engagingly written introduction. And then, if and only if one has the inclination or time for a nice historical overview, I would suggest A Splendid Exchange: How Trade Shaped the World by William J Bernstein. He somewhat succeeds in presenting the pros and cons of every major economic theory - as in the actual harm and benefit of each in past and present.

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I quite agree, Ed, and my experience in grass roots movements, persuades me, that we should not depend upon the kindness of multi-national conglomerates. I stopped reading the New York Times, after decades, of daily immersion in the front page and editorials. Last year, during the meltdown of elections, I saw how deadly that kind of journalism has become. I think the trend I am exploring here is less about waiting for some experts to do something and more about developing resources together and moving forward with transparent agendas.

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[Another self-referential post in honor of our recent discussions …]

Michel Bauwens – the speaker in the video – is, for me at least, the prototypical Belge: I’ve found them to be as laid back as the Dutch, ambitious as the Luxembourgers, emotional as the French, and in-your-face as the Germans, when they need to be, yet – and this has been my experience on numerous cooperative educational projects with them – they quietly, persistently, and passionately go about their business without letting themselves be sidetracked by the inconsequential. I learned a lot from them.

And, if you’re a meat-and-potatoes kind of guy (which I am, I’ll admit), there’s nothing like a beef carbonnade with Belgian fries (they’ll tell you, they invented them, even though the French are given the credit (it’s that low-key thing) … real potatoes and double deep-fried), and washed down with the same Trappist ale that was used to make the sauce for the carbonnade. OK, Pete & Arthur debating is one kind of heaven, but dinner in Brussels can definitely be another.

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In my book, the only “real” expert is the one who can do it.

The next best go-to-person: the one who’s giving it a go, as my British son-in-law says.

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A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things by Raj Patel, which I am reading now, has a Post-Capitalist slant to it. I get the feeling there is a lot of new thinking about economics but that the New York Times will never be reporting on it.

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I admit to feeling subtle trepidation upon seeing that there were almost 30 new comments on this thread in the past few days, feeling a responsibility to parse whatever heated discourse was underway (presumably about the Cafe or its themes)… and then relieved to discover that it comprises just another version of the fate of many threads here: a sprawling, divergent, creative collective discourse on… well, not on the stated topic, anymore, but headed in other directions…

It would be “nice to have” to sort out as a community how to “fork” conversations when this kind of outcome emerges. (And maybe this is as simple as empowering some community moderators and training them with adequate tools and methods.) Because there exists an endemic inequity, which Nate has also drawn attention to: Some of us can, faster (and with more appetite) than others: read, type, form thoughts, connect ideas, generate content, and register responses. Thus the self-generating momentum of a “cadre of the faster and hungrier” organically churn up a frothy whirlpool of waters, before any others might have a chance to influence control of the tide. This is a known drawback to this manner of forum communication… perhaps there are some creative and consensual ways we might mitigate it?

Or maybe this represents another “fork” and I should yield to the emergent thread… :slight_smile: What would we like to have our norms & actions be on such a matter? Of course leave it to me to always circle it back to Cosmos.coop’s development (I’m a facilitator: no matter how far it may stray, I will figure out a way to circle it back) :smile:

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I actually did predict the recession, and it was published on line before 2008 (see 21stcenturyparadoxes.blogspot.com), but I wasn’t able to identify a date, only that it was coming. But when I wrote this, it was 2005, and the economy was booming, so I doubted my own argument - I thought maybe I was wrong. And then, boom, it turned out to be right. The other thing I said about this was that the downturn would be sustained, that is, that we would go through a series of down and upswings, but averall the economy would start to come apart - more inequities, more extremes, etc. In 2009, nobody was buying the argument, they all thought it was a temporary setback, that “business as usual” would come back. But we are in a fundamentally different dynamic than the old “business as usual” epoch, how could they even think that? Obviously, the situation has changed somewhat since then (although most economists are still saying the economy will recover, eventually… although they don’t really know how to address the massive inequities that have come into being, so who believes them anyway?).

I know it may sound like I’m boasting when I say “I did this,” or “I said that…”, I should probably find another way to talk about these things. But here at Cosmos/InfiniteConversations, I find a community of people who don’t think it is crazy to link diverse fields into a single vision or set of visions. I have been for a long time the “crazy one”. I have been saying for years at the university that the “university model” is on its way out, and that we need to rethink many of our practices as a result, but no one is listening, or wants to. I had some students who read my “predictions” and said they felt depressed, but it has never been about getting depressed, but rather finding a way out of the mess we have gotten ourselves into, as a planetary culture.

Sorry, I’m ranting, I’ll calm down.

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Hi Caroline,

I don’t mind if someone (a “moderator”) splits the thread and starts a new one under a different title, as long as one can still track the continuity afterwards. I also, like others, would like to hear more of your voice here. I started in on Trumpocalypse, but there was a lot of text and I got sidetracked. I will go back to finish it, but one of the things I like about the site is that “voices” come through in many different ways. It is a bit chaotic, but I like that. We may need to think through an indexing system, however, to manage the chaotic complexity. Anyway, thanks for engaging, and insisting.

By the way, @johnnydavis54, love the Bauwens clip, very nice encapsulation of the ideas around the “new economy”.

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Thanks, Geoffrey, for the rant! I was mainly objecting to the official economists, who were caught off guard, in the last melt down, due to their failure to note the irrational exuberance. I think we could start another thread on this one topic. Like you said, on the last call, we have to take care of this planet first.

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Good luck!

A near impossible challenge and this plate of posts is case in point, forks forking in all directions, grabbing noodles, flinging some on the walls…

Reflections:

Looking back at the posts, there is no true solution. @madrush sent four posts to a new thread and tried to redirect us a couple time. Two tangents were based upon welcoming a new comer and a long lost friend, which I personally saw as a great chance to help “retain” the interest of those that would be otherwise overwhelmed with trying to dive into the material here. The post-capitalism postings are an indirect but relevant spin-off, etc., etc.
Nor need there be a solution to the actual quantity of posts. Personally, this site is a safe ground for me to either have deep reflection & a slow moment on a topic, or to have quick chatty responses. Sorry that we tend to hang out at your place and make a mess of your tidy room…but hey, you invited us :wink:

Ideas:

One solution you mentioned would be more hidden help, redirecting and forking frequently. Another possibility is to have someone or thing go back and tag or flag the relevant posts, shortening or redirecting the reading time, but then elements of the other posts would be needed for context. Or something like NYT’s posts in which staff and readers pick favorites.

My favorite:

The “hide details” feature (which is what is hiding this text) could be used, somehow, for the thread, making it aesthetically compartmentalized.

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To be fair, I think the whole discussion still fits under the title “How do we ask worthy questions of one another?” It’s just that the answer brings everything in. And that is itself a form of answer.

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A group needs to balance tasks with relationships.

We each have a variety of outcomes in this space and sticking to a topic can be important to some, not so important to others.

Carolyn strikes me as a task oriented person, even though she is obviously very caring.

I am more into relationships first. I have to balance tasks with relationships as we all do. And when I sense that we are off track I try to use gentle persuasion rather than getting a trained moderator to intervene.

A simple way to re-direct attention is to ask, " Is there a relationship with this conversation and the theme of HOW DO WE ASK WORTHY QUESTIONS?"

I think ( this is a strong statement) that moderating this conversational space will create a sterile, task oriented and boring place. We want to pay attention to what others are paying attention to and maintaining rapport in a space like this is far from simple.

I hope all of us would like to develop rapport skills in working with the complexity of our social worlds but if people dont show up and refuse to speak then I dont know those that do are at fault. I am however perfectly happy to take my marbles and go home. I have lots of tasks that I have neglected.

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Precisely, many did see it coming, just the so-called “experts” missed it, which was my general take-away from John’s post. It’s too bad that the non-experts are simply given no credence, but I suppose that’s part of the price one pays for living in a media-saturated, over-stimulated society.

Maybe you’ve got a touch of that prophet-in-the-wilderness syndrome … it’s not terminal, by the way, but it’s not curable either. :wink: Just about everything we have come to think is “normal” has to change, especially our institutions, but at a certain age, they take on lives of their own which makes them even more difficult to deal with. If we could just find a way to turn that depressive energy that your students often feel (and I know it well) into hope w might be able to get ourselves out of our messes more quickly. Wonder what it would take?

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“Moderating” is not the right word for what needs to happen, since in forum parlance that word normally applies to bad actors, problematic behavior, trolling, etc. That said, this particular forum has some pretty cool ‘moderation’ features, in the ability to split posts, apply tags, and use quotes and hidden text; also organize conversations among different channels and sub-channels. I hope that more of us will learn to use these tools, so that we can better keep track of what’s going on and lower the strain on attention. I still consider myself a beginner when it comes to hosting a forum—but we are learning together.

I feel that this has been a wondefully productive thread, with some significant and promising offshoots. However, one does have to follow the currents and ride the chaos somewhat, to see how all the various sub-threads interconnect, and what they’re pointing to. (It think it may be some kind of elephant :elephant:) The sine qua non for me is engagement, because this gives us something to work with. Without currents of human exchange and felt presence, the project would remain merely abstract and mental.

We’ve made some breakthroughs in the last week—which is exciting to me—but I also see the necessity (which I believe @care_save is standing for) of a consolidation of collective insight, which will require some meta-structure to coordinate various lines of thought and map how they ultimately converge. I do sense this structure emerging in a positive way, which I can trust when I feel that others are seeing and caring about the same things I do.

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I think Carolyn is pointing out a dynamic that may be accurate but that I find the conclusion does not follow. She points out that there is a " cadre of faster and hungrier" who seem to intimidate others who are not so fast. I would label this differently. I would say that those who are more proactive are going to shape the discourse more than those who are passive and rely on someone else to articulate a perspective.

A little history lesson. The Cafe, which is the brainchild of Marco, is bearing some fruit. I showed up initially because I saw Marco all alone on a live Cafe and I felt sorry for him. TJ and I joined him an hour after it started and interrupted his solitary confinement. He had committed himself to the Cafe, even if no one showed up. He puts his money where his mouth is.

I have shown up for all of the Cosmos Cafe experiences since then, because I like the people. Luck has had it, that I have led two of those Cafe events with my own social experiments, Maps of Time, and Maps of Intuition, using Clean Language. So I have used the Cafe as a performance space and I have made my agenda transparent. I am conducting qualitative social research. This is an example of co-sponsorship. This has been for me a labor of love, but it is labor intensive. I have had to overcome enormous resistance to bring forward what I value most in a public forum for I have been ridiculed in public in the past by arm chair critics who do nothing but complain. I know how it feels to be voiceless.

Ed has given an excellent presentation two weeks ago and we are doing a follow up tomorrow. One of my tasks for that event, will be to read his essay and other materials he has offered. This is a task I look forward to performing and I trust that it will enhance the relationships of those who show up for that event. If you cant make it, the video will be there to keep the energy flowing.

So those who are most proactive and are able to balance tasks and relationships are what is needed the most, in my opinion, based upon tons of experience. The energy that is released in a small coherent group is often much more impactful than what happens in a large passive group. I do believe I am not just a volunteer who pitches in on occasion, but an active participant-observer.

That is why I bristle with indignation when I am told that I am not getting with the program. I wish that those who critique this space, have seen the videos or participated actively before they grab the microphone.

Having aired my grievance here, and I hope I have been heard, I am glad to know there are more devices that I can use, but I am worried that we might fragment further with the misuse of them, when ‘political correctness’ rears its ugly head. I deeply resist that the agent of change becomes an external algorithm. This would be the worst kind of social engineering.

These issues I would love to sweep under the rug but I worry that they will resurface soon enough and the clarity and sense of purpose, and that lonely, flickering candle in the windy night, will go out. Luckily, someone will probably have a match and we can re-light it again.

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Agreed. This thread is interesting, a microcosm certainly of what is in my humble opinion the most interesting forum on the 'net. (Maybe I just don’t get out enough… but I don’t think that’s it.)
Our abundance “problem” doesn’t seem to be anything a good index cannot [fix]…no [control]… definitely wrong word… channel… that’s it.

We need more “sub-categories”. (I’m not crazy about that word either…) Not to imply that interdisciplinary things won’t, can’t, or shouldn’t happen of course, but it might be helpful if interested parties could look up and orient posts in topics of general interest (consciousness, cosmology, art, poetry, politics (this one with the usual but unfortunately obligatory ‘play nice or else’ clause (LOL), etc. As long as Marco and other admins retain the ability to put links in where applicable, we keep the free flow of ideas, just slightly easier to find and follow things - I believe Doug called it aesthetic compartmentalization.

Just some thoughts…
(Historically (what else from me?), the time of definitely gathering momentum can be a tricky negotiation…)

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I hear ya, John … but being perhaps one of (if not t-h-e) slowest of the current churners, I appreciate Caroline’s concerns. You’re very correct in noting, though, that past experiences shape very strongly what we perceive to be future options.

Let’s face it … our last cafe was pretty much all over the place, and if don’t find ourselves particularly time-constrained (e.g., in post-session forums online), our cafe sessions tend to get very all over the place. The main participants are, well, pretty all-over-the-place kind of people. Hell, in the couple of times that I was able to spring Marco from solitary confinement, as you so aptly put it, we started with a spontaneous question but never ended up at an answer to that one. One of the nicest features of our cafe sessions is that they aren’t designed. In fact, I don’t really like to refer to them as “sessions”, they’re more like “happenings”, but who around here these days even know what those were?

Other get-togethers, like those surrounding Caroline’s Trumpocalypse series, had a very different dynamic about them, and after watching the recordings, even someone as slow as me was able to put in a thought or two as well. If you figure (and these are merely good old online-experience stats I’m throwing out here) that only about 10% participate while 90% lurk, then there’s a whole lot of potential “out there” for groups of all kinds, because we can only imagine what they are from things they post somewhere on the platform, and I have by no stretch of the imagination be able to explore vast areas of this platform (after all, the cafe churners have been keeping me pretty busy lately :sweat_smile:).

What I’m sort of hoping (and as you know, we curmudgeons try to stay low-key when hope starts hopping around) is that others on the platform will drop in, see that, well, just about anything is possible here and be inspired to do their own thing. I mean Doug has been gently but firmly pushing his human-potential thought experiment, Marco has broached the subject with Zacharay about a writer’s workshop (which has already generated positive response), and if you’re up for heavy doses of reading and focused thrashing around there, are the collective readings that we’ve done and are thinking about doing. There are things happening to be sure, and as far as I’m concerned, more than I can keep up with (comes with old age, probably).

As you have so often reminded us, groups develop their own dynamics, so when there is a big enough need for a slower-paced, more focused kind of group, I feel very certain that it will form. The beauty of the InfiniteConversations platform is that nobody’s ever telling anyone not-to. By the same token, I don’t think anyone’s going to get up and just say, “let’s do …” either.

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