Alternate Realities & Dreaming


(Katina Press) #42

I wonder if you have ever seen the TV show, “Falling Water”? It is all about the power of dreaming and how our dreams tap into the “collective consciousness” of all of humanity. Hence , our individual dreams are pieces of a vast mosaic making it possible to communicate with others on a subconscious level.

The antagonist on the show has discovered this phenomenon via a huge investment of research time and money. He also discovers that there is a population of unique people scattered throughout society that harness this intuitive energy on a subconscious -level to communicate into the dreams of others. He finds a few of these people and tries to manipulate them into both cultivating and using this rare subconscious intuition to enter into and influence the dreams of others (for selfish ends, of course). One of theses “Dreamers” works for a huge investment firm and is propositioned to invade the dreams of his colleagues to gain “insider trading” secrets on Wall Street.

I think that you would thoroughly enjoy this T. V. show, JohnnyD54! It is on Hulu.

Regarding your dream last night: Let me ask you this - Is this the FIRST time that you have had this dream? Or, did you sense that some of the images from your dream were familiar and that, in some way, you had been in this situation BEFORE.?

That is one of the phenomena which I would like to discuss and explore during our ZoomCast; the idea of chronology or dreams occuring in sequence. Similar to what Douggins related in one of his dreams about the book he was looking for. I think that it is so strange when dreams continue over several nights and a little bit more of the “dream circumstance” is revealed each time. Almost as if…something is unfolding before your eyes (as a participant observer) and you get a little bit further along in this particular dream experience every time you return to it. For some reason, “something” is preventing you from experiencing the entire circumstance to completion. Instead, you participate in the dream part - by - part.

It happens to me so frequently in my dreams that I can actually recognize (in the midst of my dream state) that I have been here before in a dream. I will actually tell others in the dream what is going to happen next (because I have visited this particular dream several times).

Is this similar to what you were describing in your earlier posts (incl. the “Sleep Cycle” map)?


(john davis) #43

This would make for a great discussion. I have few answers but lots of questions. The dream I posted previously is partly new and partly an amalgamation of many dreams. Each night we have a batch of dreams which can refer to other dreams on other occasions. No dreamscape is exactly like another one but I have found as I keep a journal that there are periods of intensity when day world(s) and nocturnal world(s) overlap in significant ways. Patterns start to emerge that are not obvious during the dream, except on the rare occasions when the dreamer becomes lucid and knows the dream as a dream and then we are into very wierd loops such as you describe. We have been here before!

Our knowledge of our ignorance is an important aspect of our potential to transform our life-worlds. Please bring your dreams, memories, reflections and we will explore these topics “live”


(Katina Press) #44

I’M SOOOOOOO EXCITED!

I was so intrigued by the frequency of these “lucid” dreams (whereby I am totally aware that I am in a dream and have visited this particular dream BEFORE), that I have started a graphic sketch journal of the people and/or circumstances I encounter in these repeat dreams.

I have even wondered if my waking life is the actual dream and the repeat dreams are some of kind of “afterlife” reality - ruse in which I am entrapped.

I can’t wait to compare notes with you, JohnnyD!


(Douglas Duff) #45

We meet October 24, 2018 4:00 PM

ZOOM video ID : 740-164-668


…would be great if others join in on the conversation.


(john davis) #46

It would also be great if we can chunk down, chunk slow and create chains of complexity across different dimensions. Good theory would emerge as selves/agents/dreamers learn how to move together. Less people, more time for each dreamer and a more powerful field effect. Four people would be plenty. If others want to join in that is great but I would recommend that we maintain safety as we explore boundary conditions. This is a difference that could make a difference, Doug, and maybe we can sleep on this and discuss more fully tomorrow. Looking forward!


(john davis) #47

As I woke up recalling another embarrassing social dream, I am determined to relax and bring this into the public sphere. The borderland between public and private selves is being remodeled.

Can we do this kind of thing while providing a safe container? How do we each decide? What environment do we need? Who do we do this kind of social re-modeling with? And what kind of cultural capacities do we have or want to develop?

I have a few models I want to share today. Please bring your doodles, sketches, dreams, nightmares, reveries.Let us engage in mapping future(s). Crayons are optional.

Without method, skill and competence we will wander in the cyber wilderness. Let us co-evolve a community of the competent and then we can invite others to join us. There is a tension, for me, around depth vs span. I would invite us to hold the tension before we conclude that more is better.

More competent, skilled dream workers would be a great idea! Can we work towards that? And what needs to happen to make that happen?


(john davis) #48

I would ask everyone to get familiar with Clean Language questions if you are not already.

The Basic Clean language Questions (established by David Grove)

In these questions, X and Y represent the person’s words (or non verbals)

Developing Questions

“(And) what kind of X (is that X)?”
“(And) is there anything else about X?”
“(And) where is X? or
(And) whereabouts is X?”

“(And) that’s X like what?”
(this gets you the metaphor that you can then explore)

“(And) is there a relationship between X and Y?”
“(And) when X, what happens to Y?”

Time Questions

“(And) then what happens? or (And) what happens next?”
" (And) what happens just before X?"

Source Question
“(And) where could X come from?”

Intention Questions

“(And) what would X like to have happen?”
"(And) what needs to happen for X?


(Douglas Duff) #49

I embarrass myself

moment to moment.
A play on vulnerability

in words.

inwards ho! onwards we go.

ON Jennifer Gidley’s educational mandala above: or (as subtitled) the move “towards postformal-integral-planetary pedagogies: an educational philosophy nurturing evolution of consciousness.” This is deep stuff.
Each one of us reside comfortably within one or more of the twelve pedagogies. Having more is not necessarily better. But having knowledge of others didactics automatically reveals the mechanics of our dream cycles, education cycles, sleep cycles, cycles of Wisdom and Voice and cycles of Life and Love . We are not machines, but mechanical beings in cycles unforeseen (obscene?) seeing sights screened. I think more is better when a certain awareness allows for more to be approached patiently and gracefully. Others perspectives carry a certain solidity into formation.


(john davis) #50

And is there anything else about certain awareness?

And when a certain awareness what was that awareness before it was certain?


(john davis) #51

How do you know you have knowledge of others didactics?

And when automatically reveals the mechanics what happens right before automatic?

Chunking down…and chunking slow…


(Douglas Duff) #52

…i think i will approach this awareness with patience, grace… and caution. the awareness is a pulsation in flux. The awareness of others yes, reveals the cycle, their cycles. But only in that brief sharing before we pulse out into day-dreams, thoughts, reflections. We meet again and we are not the same creature that we thought we knew. But I know that you know this. How do we allow others to revel in the unpredictable ground? The uncertain diffractions in odd directions?


(Katina Press) #53

These clean questions are fantastic, JohnnyD! Esp. the “Time Questions” with the “Antecedent (before X) / Consequence (after X)” query.

I wish that I had this pattern of interpersonal inquiry available or taught to me when I was in grad school for Special Edu. Although, intuitively, I used a similar format when counseling my students with severe emotional/behavioral disturbance (with much success!).

You have covered several dimensions of questioning. Yet, what about establishing CONTEXT of X and/or Y? Or, is that irrelevant?


(LaughingCryingDancing) #54

Aloha,my fellow dreamers I am preparing to enter DreamTime with U’s All via the cyberspace of zoom to practice social-dreaming in the Reality without my fixed fears,constructs & just all around anxiety of being a self-consciousness aspect of this miracle named Life,I feel very Safe to be Vulnerable in our DreamTime together,let’s Rock n’Roll or Boogie!


(Katina Press) #55

I thoroughly enjoyed our session today, Bros! It was “dreamy” (I know, I know…cheese McQueen). I am looking forward to next week. JohnnyD was correct when he concluded that “this is how social interactions should be”. It is what I have been looking for since graduating college and discovering (to my horror) that there weren’t many Philosophers around. Since coming to “Cosmos”, I’ve found them!!! This is the kind of depth of conversation, in which I have missed out for too long. And, you all are the types of friends I’ve been seeking for all Eternity! Hitherto, I had given up on finding such friends, or at least delaying my expectations of experiencing this type of fellowship until I “get to Heaven”. Well, my interactions with the folks here on Cosmos are beginning to take on a spiritual nature. Similar to what I am anticipating in Heaven.


(LaughingCryingDancing) #56

Hi,Katina I am very inspired by your words,coming from my Episcopalian/Zen Buddhist/Hippi ,64 old life it does my Heart Good that the core Message implanted in me from a relationship with Jesus(my Friend) is The Kingdom of Heaven is spread before You if You have Eyes To See,I personally have come to bring that seeing into the Heart that beats each & every day,which does not exclude what come next,only that what arises NOW is in Heaven Too,in my Humble-Bumbling experience.So AWE-SOME to hang out with U.


(Katina Press) #57

EXACTLY, Michael! The Kingdom of Heaven is also within us!!! Hence, we can bring heaven to earth via our interactions with each other. That is what I try to do daily (if people will let me and they usually don’t b/c they incorrectly assume that I will want something in return). And that is one of the ways that I define a “friend”. If they are willing to allow me to get close enough to bring heaven to them. I don;t expect to get heaven in return, as I already have it within me. I just want to share it, that’s all. Thanks for letting me share! :heart_eyes::boom::sparkles::dizzy::star_struck::blush::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::gift:


(LaughingCryingDancing) #58

Heaven-Love without Condition is Scary,Like learning to Breath under Water or in a way that does not depend on Air…I am still in a learning as I go along & “Trusting The Struggle” for I Enjoy Playing with my Heart Beatheart_BEATS_by_PyroDemi-376x268


(Katina Press) #59

Yeah! I never thought of it that way before, yet, I suppose that you are correct about that. Now I understand why people don’t like it when I love them. Ok! That is probably why the gospels often equate love with faith. They say that the latter produces the former. Your above statement, which I quoted, makes even more sense of this scriptural truth. Hmmm?!?

When I think about it…I responded the EXACT same way when Christ tried to enter into my heart. It scared me so much that I (almost) couldn’t believe it.

Then, I wonder…Why is it so difficult or “scary” to believe that we are “loveable” without condition or beloved of someone “just because”? Does mankind have some inherent inferiority/inadequacy complex, or something? I suppose that we are scared of being unconditionally loved for two basic reasons:

(1) There HAS to be a motive for love (like with hate). Unless there is some legitimate value associated with my identity, which justifies me being the “object” of someone’s desire, then from whence does the love originate? There HAS to be a condition! There JUST HAS to be! You cannot possibly love me WITHOUT a “because”. Otherwise, you expect me to believe that I am loved JUST because I AM.

SIDE NOTE BENE: Maybe that _was part of the message that God was trying to communicate to mankind when He revealed the first part of His name to Moses. Perhaps the FIRST part of God’s name “I AM” revealed to us something ESSENTIAL about mankind’s nature in relationship to God - that our nature/essence can be equated with our mere existence, which serves as a sufficient justification for being loved by God. (This kinda turns the existentialist philosophy on its head by revising their nihilistic proclamation that, “existence precedes essence” to that of, “existence IS essence”). Perhaps, God wanted man to consider it an honor (just) to simply exist.

Then, the SECOND part of God’s name, “…THAT I AM” reveals to us something ESSENTIAL about God’s nature in relationship to man - that His nature/essence can be equated with His unique identity as “self-existing” entity, from which, man derives his existence AND also attributes value to existence.

(2) To be loved unconditionally means that I may have to respond in kind and I simply CANNOT love unconditionally. Hence, to receive unconditional love from another would automatically put me in a state of “tragic inadequacy” in relationship to my lover.

Does any of this make sense? It does to me.


(LaughingCryingDancing) #60

Katina,Yes I Feel the sense of your words & point of view;I am not as versed in Biblical Scripture as U are & I find completely amazing & hold with a certain AWE,with that said my personal Experience & Crafting of the gift of word magic;Small Human Beings come into God’s/Tao’s Creation with a fresh,new way of expressing Beingness(my take on Life in all It’s Manifestion).The condtions of this is MESSY,for the small ones & the caretakers (who were small at one time),some of these conditions stick/cover over the openness to the ocean of Unconditionally of existence/essence which creates a wall(Duality) rather than honoring the living relationality within the Unconditioned.One word in the Bible I’ve come appreciate is AWE,my encounter with this was the Dual point of feeling Both Wonder & Terror.I only Know without knowing with Extreme Certainty,the certainty of the more I Open my Heart to the Mystery of the Unconditional( Which is Love that is not held to a certain condition)is the only Path,Way,Adventure,Journey I Have come to put my Feet,Gut,Heart,&Soul-Brain to with Commitment,Faith & Embracing the AWE.Does this cross over into your experience a little bit?Thanks for engaging this Beautiful-Messy Play of the Divine.Peace Be With U & Yours my Friend10411355_10152426168948390_6187874803129386987_n


(Katina Press) #61

You don’t have to be versed in Biblical Scripture, Michael, as YOU ARE flesh made scripture. I have this (highly probable) theory about scripture, in general, which can be summed up as follows:

Just as Christ became the model for perfect humanity via His manifestation as “Word made Flesh”, I truly believe that humans were created and called to compliment the chiastic version of Christ’s identity in (eventually) manifesting as “Flesh made Word”. There is nothing amazing about my LOVE for scripture, its the latter which makes the former AMAZING…No…“AWESOME”!!!

Yes. That statement would make a fitting definition for the word “Love” (No…“Perfect Love”), as it was intended to be expressed and understood, “opening one’s heart to the Mystery of the Unconditional”. Perfect Love! Which is also consistent with the Biblical characteristics of Perfect Love, in that it “casts out fear” (I John 4: 18)… Esp. if one’s heart is “open” to the unknown (mystery) instead of fleeing from it in fear.