Cosmos Café [5/14] - BYOC

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@Mark_Jabbour

Who attacked who? I’m unclear? Clarification? I did not register any attack?

You attacked me, Mark, in a public forum. I take it personally. I will defend myself and if I see anyone else attacked I will defend them as well.

And when I am attacked by you, Mark, in this forum and when you know that personal attacks are not tolerated, I want you to acknowledge this and change your behavior.

And when a member of the group ( myself) has been attacked personally, what does the cafe group want to have happen???

I want the Cafe to become more coherent, rather than de=coherent.

And can that happen? I am not so sure.

I sense that the group is into fight, flight, freeze.

Mark needs a time out. He should consult with a mental health professional. I wish him luck.

And I hope this Cafe can re-cohere and hopefully learn something useful. I believe there is enough good will and generosity from this Cafe ( which I co-founded and worked very hard to keep clear communications going) and I appreciate that others can get triggered. Each of us has to find a way of working with these moments when they arise.

I don’t wish to demonize Mark for his atrocious behavior, and I wont allow myself to be publicly insulted or censored.

Is there an alternative to fight, flight, freeze?

I expect someone here must have something to say about this?

And what kind of future do the members of this Cafe want?

[Michael_Stumpf (LaughingCryingDancing)]

My sense of what Mark was doing with his words was not acceptable to my way of using one’s speech to express one’s point of view about an individual/or feeling tone .This is not PC it’s a matter of airing one’s own Frustrations & Differences within oneself with the same Dignity & Respect they want to receive when doing so.Kinda like helping clean up after a Conversational dinner has been served & time for every one to help out.But feels like a Food fight has begun because Mark’s understanding of Freedom of Speech is different then mine.I still don’t khow how He came to his POV about @johnnydavis54,everyone’s feelings /thoughts & the “Barometer”,( the Barometer is the [FAQ - Infinite Conversations I believe), I perceive his frustration & strong dislike about things we discuss …I perceive that in myself & You Mark.So what’s happening?It feels like You can’t say it your way or others might have a reaction or express disagreement.It seems disagreement can have a underlying trigger-contact…My trigger is that Your way is a unfortunate way to Really Be Free.

It seems we are witnessing what,where ,how are we using our Attention & Paying Attention to our Choice of the Kind of Attention? The alternative to fight-flight-freeze is learning to bring a “Bodyfullness Attention to the Action we Choose to take” which includes Arms & Legs & Mouth(muscles),seems to be a possibility? At least in my Humble Experience of having a Body with a Mouth,hence my change of my profile picture…that’s why I do my Best to practice “Non-Defensive Listening”,which does not mean not defend or better state my side of the difference - tension with a POV…disagreement has a affective as well as a cognitive one,we exclude the Middle of movement between the two in my Humble experience,I know I have until it was to painful to do so.

[Douggins (Douglas Duff)]

I can’t say much for what happened. These type of exchanges are foreign to me. But I do want a form of elevated discourse to occur here. I will say I wasted four hours of my life yesterday weed eating at my grandmother’s farm (long story . . . short version: she is hell-bent on managing her farmland at age 81 and I can’t allow her to perform the work herself when the lawn care folk can’t follow through with her demands . . .). When I come here and see the CosmosCraft steering into the PitsofHell, I tend to pack up my bags and take an alternate route. After this post, I will be busy and away most of the day. I expect to come back and see some creative manuvers from the lot of ya!

On the positive side: I listened to stimulating audio during this four-hour marathon. The recording titled “A Conversation with Robert Bellah on ‘Religion in Human Evolution’” is top-notch (and highly academic). His work Religion in Human Evolution which “traces the biological and cultural origins of religion and the interplay between the two” sounds like a sprawling, 700+ page magnus opus that may have redefined how we look at the Axial Age and religion. I’d like to hear more about this one, though the size of it is intimidating. Is this what led you to read The Axial Age and Its Consequences @patanswer and @johnnydavis54? Robert Bellah is a much more interesting fella than I had imagined. . . I picked up a copy of Habits of the Heart awhile back but did not research into Bellah’s vast biliography. I have heard him compared as a cross between Talcott Parsons and Paul Tillich (Tillich being the one who introduced me to alternate ways of seeing Christianity).

One theme I would like to pick up on that came through in a couple of the talks I listened to is the theme of play as essential in the development of ritual.

From Robert Bellah on the origins of religion. A Critical Review:

Ritual, for Bellah, is humanity’s basic social act. Earliest, simple societies engaged in mimetic, wordless ritual. It is only after the emergence of tribes that cultures learned to organize themselves through narratives. In more complex tribal societies, we can follow the differentiation of powers in what had previously been rather egalitarian societies of gatherers-hunters.

This ties in, I believe with the artistic expression we perform here (thank you again for sharing yours @Ariadne!). And this is what I would like to see more of. That is the future I would want for us all.

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@Douggins

But I do want a form of elevated discourse to occur here.

I would like that, too, Doug, and I am not getting that here. This group is at high risk in my opinion. I know you would prefer to pack your bags and leave nor do I blame you. I find this disappointing that I am not getting the support from you that I would like to have. It seems you are trying to distract the group’s attention, just the way you do one year old, Vincent. I think that works with a little kid but not with adults. Re-direct attention by all means but please let’s not add insults to injury by pretending the attack is not happening. This is not a safe space and I am not putting up with this. The atmosphere here is toxic.

About the Robert Bellah material. I have already discussed doing a call on this with TJ, who is also interested. The Cafe, as presently configured, is not the place to present this. It is hard work and not for those who find Bateson boring. TJ has mentioned that he would be open to a conversation at the end of the month. I think we should definitely host this event but not here at the Cafe. I would like to continue to create conditions for future Cafe events but have strong reservations about investing any more time here. I wonder what Gregory and Nora would have to say about this dynamic? If it aint got that swing…

I appreciate, Doug, your effort to be fair and not take sides. And sometimes by not taking sides you are actually taking the side of the bully. I share with you a desire for creative discourse events so maybe we should move our interest in Bellah to a more congenial space with a better atmosphere. Thanks!

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@Michael_Stumpf

It seems we are witnessing what,where ,how are we using our Attention & Paying Attention to our Choice of the Kind of Attention? The alternative to fight-flight-freeze is learning to bring a “Bodyfullness Attention to the Action we Choose to take”

This is well said, Michael, and I appreciate that you ready willing and able to take risks in public. You have consistently been a grounded person and I have enjoyed sharing attention and energy with you. Deep bows!

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

Are we going to get to a higher level of discourse? I have not heard from Marco. I suspect, as a co-founder of the Cafe, he is trying to rise above the fray.Or perhaps he has better things to do. We might be able to get to a higher level as a group, but maybe not. I am already making plans to go elsewhere and if others are watching this I would not blame them if they want to go elsewhere, too. The aura of the group has been tarnished pretty bad. I think swift action is required. I sense a disconnect in the values of the group, of the big manifestos about the future state of the globe and what is actually happening. This doesn’t feel like an alternative to Facebook any longer. This is my feedback to the group about the communications of the group from the group’s field. There is a tear in the protective sheath and the alien voices are coming in. Best to re-stabilize, center and ground. This is a quantum reality and a bifurcation is happening. A flip?

The time is out of joint; O curs’d spite,
That ever I was born to set it right!

[madrush (Marco V Morelli)]

I have nothing to say. The dialogue (or lack thereof) speaks for itself. I hope @Mark_Jabbour will sober up. I would like to talk about Wallace’s story, actually, “Good Old Neon.” It should probably be an ‘underground’ conversation, however—since we would be in dialogue with the dead. I would wish for more convivial blends of discourse in the Café.

Wallace is more than a cautionary tale. I dare say, he’s lucky he died when he did—this age would not be very kind to him. He saw the obscene gargantuan shape of our world of infinite jest (lived it in his own psyche) before it actually materialized—and boy, did it.

It looks ugly out there. That is all the more reason to elevate the dialogue. The Cafe at its best is much better than this. Rather than talk shit, I say let’s make art.

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@madrush

I have nothing to say.

And yet you have said a lot.

@madrush

The dialogue (or lack thereof) speaks for itself.

I am not so sure of this. I think it important ( a high level value) that people actually say out loud what they are thinking, rather than let others be abused in a public forum.

I also hope Mark will sober up. And I am not going to be generous to Mark when he is so ungenerous with me.

It is an ever present danger to have empathy for someone who treats you like an enemy. I fear that this is the dilemma I find myself with Mark and his behavior in this group.

Art and talking shit… and who is talking shit here?

It is not “I”.

And I have spent enough time on this topic and am glad to move on. I have very big doubts about the capacity of this group to withstand the perturbations going on within this group.

So, I am open to doubt while I also have hope that there is a way to re-organize at a higher level rather than a lower level. And who decides?

I think it may be time to re-direct my attention to my own circumstances. There are millions of stars out there going extinct. Does any one really care? Not really…

I can be just as apathetic as you appear to me to be, Mr Morelli. I share your enthusiasm for art and the visionary. And there is always the danger of letting things slide…

I will muddle on through as best I can and let this go.

[Michael_Stumpf (LaughingCryingDancing)]

@madrush

Rather than talk shit, I say let’s make art.

@johnnydavis54

I will muddle on through as best I can and let this go.

@Mark_Jabbour

Can we? here? @infiniteconversations.com ? I doubt it. But maybe

The picture above is the State I’ve been in-using to take the shit & make art,muddle through & maybe,in some small creative way bring this messy compost to good use,What Say U? What I will put forth is a Stained Window of my own making,which is specifically directed at Myself, John & Mark ,plus the forum at large.

First a bit how I am affected by Lived Experience,I have a form of Synesthesia which expresses itself through Affect-Kinesthesia-Sonic mix of the senses(Feeling-Muscle Position & Movement-Sound waves). The sensation of disagreement-difference & tension activates defensive states when I encounter words,sounds,& behaviors landing in & on this system of bones,blood,nerves & gaseous,elements. I have come to take seriously my ability to respond in new & creative ways.These Defensive States are inevitable, and workable if one Chooses to consider to Imagine the Impossibility of Influencing said Defensive State as a Form of Art from the Bottom-up & around to ? There are Liminial-Gaps in playing-working with The Movement of these States, Giving Attention to & in these Movements like a Dancer,Aikido practitioner & Dare I say a Conversationalist. I fully without Blame-Shame accept the Risk of my Ever Maturing Art & Totally to Others the same as best I can for I will & can get caught in Defensive States from time to time,which is not the problem its how do I Honor my Commitment to Play like there’s no Tomorrow.Peace & Care Be with Each & Everyone. Michael

[Ariadne (Maia)]

@madrush

It looks ugly out there. That is all the more reason to elevate the dialogue. The Cafe at its best is much better than this. Rather than talk shit, I say let’s make art.

I am a relative new-comer, here, and up to this point I’ve been feeling things about the way Mark spoke about Johnny, which seemed to be the beginning of the exchange, but I’m not cclear on what to say or do yet, and don’t know any of the history really.

The reason I am here at all was/is partly to leave behind the thoughtlessly thrown angry remarks mode so dominant “out there”, outside of Cosmos Coop . And the second reason is the sharing of our art, insights, collaborations, comaraderies, griefs, co-encouragments…with each other.

[Ariadne (Maia)]

@johnnydavis54

I think it important ( a high level value) that people actually say out loud what they are thinking, rather than let others be abused in a public forum.

Just now as I started a reply to you, Johnny, “Mindful Bot” hinted that I’ve replied too many times on this topic and “am I sure I am providing adequate time for other people to share their points of view, too?” I felt like laughing at this near rudeness and my irritation.

I do agree it is important for me/us to speak up about what comes across as an attack from one person on another person, and yes, I did feel “attack mode” inallusions to PC, and “normal”, etc (Neither do I have any interest in “attack mode” directed back at them) and this is most definitely not meant to be that. I just had to respond to you, to respond to what you said about the importance of speaking up .

I do so hope that you can feel the support for you here. It’s very hard to find the right words, but you are good at listening below words into intentons. I hope you can hear that support…

[patanswer (T J Williams)]

Well.
I leave for a wife birthday/Mom Day weekend and come back (broke LOL) to find this thread has blown up… but not at all in the way I was expecting.

This says a great deal and thank you, Michael:

@Michael_Stumpf

My sense of what Mark was doing with his words was not acceptable to my way of using one’s speech to express one’s point of view about an individual/or feeling tone .This is not PC it’s a matter of airing one’s own Frustrations & Differences within oneself with the same Dignity & Respect they want to receive when doing so.

This, I believe, says something, too:

@mindful_ai

The airing of differences is welcome, but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

All righty, then.
Since post #21 was a personal attack on a friend (in the absence of any indication in this thread that there was a specific difference to be aired) by someone I would have liked to consider a friend despite some clear differences in outlook on many things, what happens now? Meant seriously: if I were to verbally go off on any of you for whatever reason, what should I reasonably expect?

Sigh.

@johnnydavis54

I will muddle on through as best I can and let this go.

Yeah, let it go. But only because you rightly called it out first.

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@Ariadne

I do so hope that you can feel the support for you here.

Thank you, Ariadne, and I hope you feel supported, too, as you enter the weave…

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@patanswer

Yeah, let it go. But only because you rightly called it out first.

Thanks, TJ, and I am glad to know I can count on you as an ally. I hope we can work on the Bellah project together in the near future but perhaps we can find a time that is convenient for you and away from the Cafe. I think Bellah is too much heavy lifting for the Cafe and I want to learn something from you about these difficult but inspiring essays. I have lots of ideas. And Happy Mother’s Day!!!

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@Michael_Stumpf

I have a form of Synesthesia which expresses itself through Affect-Kinesthesia-Sonic mix of the senses

Like you, Michael, I am a perceptual learner. No doubt why we have a strong mutual interest in energetics, metaphor and speaking from head-heart-gut connection. Your sober wisdom is much appreciated.

[madrush (Marco V Morelli)]

I am sorry. I had not read all the exchanges prior to Mark’s interjection. I had other things going on all weekend and could only give this discussion partial attention. I didn’t realize all the rich and nuanced exchanges which had unfolded from @Douggins’ initial invitation. I thought at first this was an excessive extension of the banter that sometimes goes on—a gross foul, deserving of a firm warning. But Mark’s post was really ruinous of the conversation that was developing, like a sloppy drunk walking in the door raging, hurling incoherent insults, just while the band is warming up and getting in the groove.

It’s too bad; I listened to the ‘free progress education’ talk with Marco Masi recently, and Mark made some excellent points. He often adds perspectives that ought to be heard. At his best, he keeps the group ‘honest’ through representing a realist POV. But these events won’t work with the rude interruptions displayed by his post above. Moreover, I’m personally annoyed to have to be dealing with this issue when I could be doing other, more interesting, creative work.

Let’s move on, and I hope Mark will not only apologize, but also steam vac the social fabric he just urinated on.

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@madrush

I could be doing other, more interesting, creative work.

I hear you. I have much better things to do as well and I am doing them. I will not waste anymore of my valuable time trying to makes sense of Mark’s nonsense.

@madrush

Let’s move on, and I hope Mark will not only apologize

As there has been no apology offered or responsibility taken how can he be expected to do anything different from what he already has? And if Mark should apologize,( which he hasn’t) would that be a prediction or a promise?

Trust is difficult to come by and easy to destroy. I do not trust Mark but I do trust the community and yourself Marco to do the right thing.

And maybe this could become, Marco, more interesting and creative work?

I want to rethink this. I can let go if there is acknowledgement of a violation but we must never forget that this happened. Transforming double and triple binds in a public forum ( which is what is happening here) is very important work.

If we dont do this work, who will?

[Michael_Stumpf (LaughingCryingDancing)]

Groking the workable possibility with a perturbation in-on this Infinite Conversations ,I am liking how Honesty is coming forward .

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

Dinah Washington finds her voice after a great betrayal. Divas know how to transform personal suffering into art.

You want me to sound like Julie London?
Would you like me to sound like Lady?
I want you to sound like DInah Washington.

Dinah Washington - Cry me River

[achronon (Ed Mahood)]

As I said, oh, so long ago in a thread far away, I am away on Dad/grandpa duty. At an unexpected lull in the action and a few unclaimed moments on my hands, I thought I’d check in to see what’s new. What a mess. But messes happen when things blow up, don’t they.

Mark’s post was and remains an enigma to me. I can only speculate on the text; a video of Sam Harris and Robert Wright wouldn’t fit into my schedule if I had nothing else to do. I like to spend my time as productively as I can, and I don’t care to like throwing it at activities that are going to be obvious no-goes for me.

Having said that, I don’t possibly know what I could say that would add to what has already been said. When I can, I will show up for events that interest me. I already said I couldn’t make this café; and this thread is over for me, too. This is not how I want to spend time.

If John, TJ, and whoever get something going on Bellah, I’d be interested in following that. I’ll keep my eyes peeled.