[Proposal] Cosmos Café - Six Ways to Go Meta

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In the previous episode, Michael, John and Marco, focused attention upon philosopher Peter Kingsley. We did some self-modeling in that episode. New minds are emerging. We are an open underground.

And what happens next? Here is a link to Bonitta Roy’s presentation, her best work to date. This is a deep dive into the developmental and the beyond. Not for the timid! The podcast interview is about Bonnie’s presentation, a link to that presentation is provided in the show notes. The interview and the presentation will take about two hours to watch and listen to.

Another suggestion. My colleague, Marian Way, makes connections between Clean Language and Permaculture. This is less than a half hour read, and those who are are not familiar with Clean Language or Permaculture can follow this easily.

Both Marian and Bonnie are demonstrating a capacity to model complex systems. These are skills for those who want to evolve with the Anthropocene.

And what is possible, as we are learning how to self-model, that was not possible before?

If anyone has other suggestions, hunches and guesses, please share. We have two days to make a plan for next Tuesday Cafe. By Friday an announcement and invitation will be posted.

To find Marian Way’s essay, please google Clean Language is like… Permaculture
Thanks for any observations, feedback, and alternate ways of knowing. New participants are welcome!

Seed Questions

  • Q1
  • Q2

Context, Backstory, and Related topics

  • Other relevant links or topics, e.g., leading up to this talk
  • Links to additional reading, viewing, listening

I look forward to reviewing the podcast with Bonnie, and will be happy to go into it on Tuesday. Let’s see if there are any other suggestions or additions before the weekend.

An open underground… and a sunshine society. These metaphors seem to go well together. As below so above!

Here is a direct link to: Clean Language is like… Permaculture.


Let’s see if there are any other suggestions or additions before the weekend. I am also interested in Abhinavagutpa. Perhaps your friend has an article to share? I hope others will come up with ideas.


I am trying to keep that small craft, in a choppy sea, heading towards a destination. I feel that we can easily capsize, and if we do, all of the contents that have been gathered on this small craft, the letters, documents, drawings, precious gems, works of art, cooking utensils, will go down to the bottom of the sea. The bottom of the sea is cruel…capacious…ganglion…

(capacious-having a lot of space inside; roomy.)

What I learned from the Peter Kingsley study is that we need to renew our contract with the living and the dead. Soon…we shall become ancestors…what will we leave behind?

And Michael…and his love for his son…as big as the planet as seen from a moon shot…and then lots of waves… and ecstasy…

And Marco…and maturation of an ensemble of capacities…and a thread of hope…and a meta-cognition…pain/pleasure…good/evil…over ride that…and transmute…after laundry the ecstasy…

And what happens next?

I can draw a picture. So can each of us. And that may be a way of renewing the contract. I will work on this and try to upload. I will try to stay with the trouble…but I am also yearning to go back to sleep and let someone else do this hard work…the strenuous, unpaid labor…ambivalence and ambiguity…I have looked at clouds from both sides now…


The Tentacles,Threads,Ripples in the Field"Cosmos" is reaching the Open Underground & bringing the Mystery into the light of Day.Darkness & Light are not Enemies as we Human make them out to BE,there is only the Natural Fear of Not Knowing,Whether we are in the Dark or Light: Not Knowing is the Betwixt - Between Place we need to Learn to be Comfortably Un-Comfortable with ;Easy No! Possible? Here a E-Mail that arrived this morning from I count as a Spiritual-Human Friend.

My friend Prof. Bruce Alderman kindly asked me to participate in what he calls “a wheel of perspectives” he was hosting on the topic of sacred naturalism. I was really honored to be invited so I said yes :). Bruce asked a number of talented & thoughtful individuals to give their thoughts on different facets and approaches to the topic of sacred naturalism and record themselves sharing their reflections. He’s collected those reflections and published them on youtube as a single video. You can watch it here. My section begins around minute 41. It’s a bit over twenty minutes. There’s a number of friends of mine like Tim Winton and David McLeod.

In my reflection I focus on notions of weird naturalism, super normality, and super naturalism as articulated by scholars like Erik Davis, Jeffrey Kripal, and Dean Radin. What those ideas stress is that what we often take to be “paranormal” or “non-ordinary” phenomena—things like precognitive dreams, deja vu experiences, encounters with mystical realities—are in fact part of the normal order of things. These kinds of experiences and interactions maybe be “super” natural but they are still that, natural.

Super-natural here means a super intensified or super version of normality/natural/the real. Unlike in the Middle Ages where the spiritual realm was thought to be above and beyond this world (SUPER-natural) we are now coming to realize that these types of experiences are intrinsic to reality.

They also aren’t paranormal either. The word paranormal literally means “alongside of” or “next to” ( para ) normality. We tend to treat these experiences either as some above (supernatural) or i this weird corner off over there somewhere (paranormal). But as I like to say, the paranormal is normal. It isn’t paranormal at all. It’s just part of reality.

This view of super naturalism also criticizes the tendency towards secular skepticism and debunking that is prevalent nowadays. These experiences are real. I’ve found throughout my life that given enough time someone will share with me a time they knew they were of a presence or felt the energy of a home or building or knew someone was going to call them just before that person did call them or had a dream that revealed an experience they were about to have in their live.

These experiences are perfectly normal and in fact very common in people’s lives and yet we don’t have a very good framework for understanding and dealing with them in a healthy, conscious way. That is where i find ideas like sacred naturalism so helpful.

Sacred naturalism doesn’t require a person to adhere to some religious doctrine necessarily but neither is it out to debunk these experiences as hallucinations or fantasies. We take them seriously and allow their beauty and strangeness to breathe. In weird or sacred naturalism the idea is not to try right away to domesticate them but rather let these experiences stay wild and weird.

Through my work with individuals over these last seven years exploring the terrain of the soul I’ve been witness to any number of super-natural experiences, insights, and events. I’ve also noticed how deeply ashamed so many of us are for having these experiences. The social pressure of being labeled crazy, eccentric, woo woo or whatever is so great people are terrified they will be judged harshly and socially ostracized for sharing their experience. Even in supposedly open liberal spiritual communities there are typically all kinds of prejudices and harsh critical tendencies that shut people down.

Meanwhile these experiences keep happening in people’s lives and they may not get the support they need to heal, to grow, or to learn from these experiences. These models then are not simply dry abstract philosophical head trips; they are existentially vital. They help to normalize for people their super normal experiences so they don’t feel weird or crazy. It allows us to be acknowledge what is reality and stop being out of touch with our actual experience. A strong passion for me and a reason why I do the work I do is to help normalize these experiences and thereby come into more wholeness and integration.

What all this points to is that consciousness is real. Consciousness and intention can have effects on material reality. Life is a en-souled phenomena. Life is psychophysical process. It’s consciousness + materiality at the same time whereas our economics, politics, ecology, education, is all built on the dogmatic lie that only material forces are real.

The disconnect between the official (materialist) storyline of secular society and our experience is a kind of social gaslighting. It makes people think they’re the crazy ones when what is actually disturbed is our world. Just turn on the news if you don’t believe me.

We’re out of touch with the sacred and it’s (literally and figuratively) killing us. We need to return to touch into these deeper dimensions of realty, even if they are a bit out there, wild, weird, alluring, fascinating, bewildering at times. At least that is more real and ultimately there is something to reality that being in touch with it is the way to heal.

The topic of the talk was sacred naturalism so I also explore how ideas of the weird and the highly strange and the anomalous could be understood to be holy (sacred) and how awe is the classic human response to the holy/the numinous.

As the Bible says:

“Awe is the beginning of wisdom.”

Awe is the beginning, not the end but prior to awe there is no chance for wisdom. Our world is one without awe, hence it’s one that is without wisdom (aka ignorance/delusion). Awe is to be in touch with the mystery of Life and realize we really have no freaking clue what is going on :). It’s a beautiful, weird, alluring, and utterly bizarre thing to be incarnate when you really give it a moment’s thought. And so much I think of our world is about taking out that (beautiful) nutty quality to life. Weird realism and sacred naturalism argue to appreciate the weird and the wild. That they are somehow indicative of the nature of reality. They aren’t just a problem we haven’t figured out yet but are somehow intrinsic to the message of Life itself.

If you watch and enjoy the video please share it along, like it, or comment on youtube directly. In particular if you do comment give it a shout out to Bruce Alderman as he did a lot of leg work on this one, as well o the rest of the individuals on the video sharing their wonderful thoughts on sacred naturalism.

Here’s the link one more time. I hope you enjoy it.


This is not a suggestion for next Tuesday,more of Sign of what is Growing in Our Field & the Larger Field.I am not saying anything other than that “Shit is Happening” beyond my Binary thinking - feeling & the Don’t Know Place is a mix of Anxiety & Excitement and sometimes it’s hard to know the “Difference that Makes A Difference”. I am Grateful for Infinite Cafe’ Gang & Chris Dierkes for Keeping this Heart Open even when It’s Fucking Scary Out There !


I have had a Super Busy couple of days, but they have been good and my soul continues making progress round the wheel of life and death. It’s good to see Chris Dierkes’ words, they echo a lot of what we’ve discussed over the past couple years. He might like to join us for a future Café; I could ask. He is a dear brother.

Our recent Cafés have felt to me catalytic and I hope we can continue the trend! I will probably not listen to Bonnitta’s talk until this weekend. I have also recently picked up the book Learning to Die in the Anthropocene by Roy Scranton, which I will be flipping through and this may color my attitude coming into next week.

Is there a relationship between learning to die and going meta? And what we leave behind?


That’s a good question, Marco, but I would go about it differently.

I would slowly ( very slowly) develop " learning to die" and
" going meta" before I would ask for a relationship between them.

These are to my third ear, disembodied concepts. They are nowhere, coming from no one.

For example, " going meta"…

And when " going meta"…what happens right before " going meta"?

And does " going meta" have a size or a shape?

And when “going meta” what was meta before it was going?

You could then locate a trajectory of thought/feels, sensory based cues, see-feel-touch-sounds ,gestures and rhythms and tones, happening in a person’s sensorium. Then ,I would develop
" Learning to die"

And what kind of learning is that when learn to die?

And when die, what happens right before?

And what happens after?

As you can probably imagine, Marco, as a poet and magic maker, these questions can start becoming catalytic. Most people are never asked to locate concepts in a perceptual space. When concepts are located, ( whereabouts? on the inside or the outside?) it is fairly easy to create relationships between even the most highly abstract ideas.

When a network is established, you can point to the clusters of relationships that are already formed and ask relationship questions with powerful effect.

Notice how Michael, in our last call, modeled himself. He said," If you ask me does it have a size or shape I would say my love for my son is as big as the planet seen from a moon shot."

Love for my son has become a metaphor. Michael, I believe, has gone meta, in a creative way.

I asked," Then what happens?" The question is focuses attention upon the future of this metaphor.

And Michael gave me a whirlwind ( my metaphor) of a response, with gestures of waves and gravity with hands, body, voice…all of this is holographic of a much deeper structure, of an invisible architecture, made visible…

We are modeling space and time…but there is also something more fundamental than space and time that our bodyminds can become alert to…

Perhaps this is where Kingsley is coming from, when he claims Parmenides and Empedocles, as shapers of our civilization. I would claim that we are doing that shaping in our very own sensoriums if we could make explicit our meta-cognitive moves in the moment. Space is not just empty, it is also psychoactive. (W)hole? Empty? Both/and/neither/nor…and where does Space come from?

Once, when I was three or four years old, my father was driving and I was standing in the passenger seat, gazing out the window. This was before the age of seat belts. As I gazed out the window at a suburban street, with green lawns, and the smell of grass, people walking around, the clear blue sky, I asked," Daddy, where do I come from?" I felt something moving in my little boy body, in my tummy…in my chest…,an ecstasy…like pink roses blooming inside of me…

He said," You come from Alabama."

I said." That’s not what I mean." I gestured to the street, at all of that commotion, moving past the window," Where do I come from?"

He said, with a bit of fear in his voice," You come from God."

" oh…" I was quite perplexed and confused. I stopped asking questions of him. It bothered him…And I hid my ecstasy from him…

If I had a parent who could have responded with curiosity, rather than fear, I wonder,… what kind of relationship my father and I might have had?

And what kind of I is that, son?

And does that I , have a size or a shape?

And where is that I?

A child can go meta. And if we are sensitive to this meta move, of a child’s mind, what would happen, if we could work clean rather than with a sloppy metaphysics coming from a hierarchical, fear based, society?

Perhaps, in a sunshine society, a child, when she goes meta, will be expected to remember rather than to forget, who she is.

“The Child is Father of the Man” -Wordsworth

Most of us are assuming way too much about another person because of the cliche language we employ, a dead language, told by zombies. We already know what they are talking about, and we grow numb and dumb, sharing disembodied sloppy notions, like two drunks at a bar, singing along with Peggy Lee. How can you learn how to die if you never learned how to live?


That John is a Koan for a Cafe’ it seems to me; & is similar to Is Stillness a stopping of Movement? What Happens before Stillness?,What size & shape is the Psychoactive Movement when Stillness is?
I hope I used Clean Language in a honorable way?
Threads are Dreaming their way into this Life Form.


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Greetings all!

Just yesterday, the family and I arrived safe, sane, and sound back in the Fatherland. I thought I’d just let you know.

Glad to see you’re still rolling along at a good pace. Due to other commitments, however, I won’t be able to make the CCafé this coming Tuesday, which is probably all the better as I haven’t been able to follow what yinz have been up to while I was away, and I’d only be partially prepared for whatever you’re going to be delving into then.

From the couple of postings I did skim through, though, I have a general question: would it be possible to get a 25-words-or-less pointer to what “meta” means? I don’t want to break the discussion flow, and I don’t need some cast-in-stone conceptual definition; I’d just like a general orientation to help me get back in a groove. It would certainly be appreciated.

One could possibly argue that “space” is only “psychoactive”. Like Einstein’s description of time: it is what keeps everything from happening at once, one could imagine space as what keeps everything from bumping in to one another, a kind of act-of-mind to separate connectedness just to get a look at what’s bumping. Just a thought from the jet-lag realm.

Keep on rollin’.


A very honorable way, Michael. You are thinking like a modeler.

And a Koan for a Cafe. And then what happens?

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Meta (from the Greek meta- μετά- meaning “after” or “beyond”) is a prefix used in English to indicate a concept that is an abstraction behind another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

Exactly 25 words, Ed. I can’t do any better than this. Welcome back.


Feed-forward for a potential Cafe. As no one has filled out anything or made an announcement, and the deadline was today, I assume no one really wants anything to happen or have yet to make up their mind. So, I will press the pause button to redirect my attention to other activities until someone else tries to make something happen. I do hope that someone will carry forward the catalytic for next Tuesday. Have a great weekend!

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According to Peter Kingsley in Reality there’s a Incubation.


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And an incubation…and it’s like watching paint dry…it’s so boring…this is way too slow…

And when way too slow…what does John want to have happen?

I live in New York City and it is very fast…too fast…and the Cafe is too slow…and too fast…and too slow…and when New York is too fast and the Cafe is too slow…what do you want to have happen…

I know a place, where there are plenty of books, the midtown reading room, at 42nd street, an enchanted place, with old fashioned, nineteenth century paneling and shelving, with rows of the greatest of the great thinkers, and plenty of light from the giant windows, that open up to sky and tall buildings. The ceiling has a famous painting of a sky scape. Touching the bindings of the beautiful books…opening a book…smelling the pages…putting it back on the shelf…words…words…words… I recall the famous writers who used to study here, James Baldwin, Charles Fort…authors of the Impossible…it is haunted by ghosts…

And I have two books on hold that are not in circulation. I take them to the back of the giant room to a smaller room, a quiet room, for people like myself, who love silence. It is about the most quiet place in Manhattan, and after the traffic, zooming in and out traffic, on my bike, ears split by sirens, nostrils filled with fumes, I am amazed by the contrast of tempos… a city of strangers, some come to work, some to play…and a city of strangers…

I sit in the quiet and open the two books, I read an hour from one book, get up and stretch, browse the shelves, and then go to the other book and read for another hour. I take careful notes in my black moleskin… I take notes…make diagrams…sketch a face…the face of a man I once knew…who drank too much and stayed up late and died young…decades ago…he was killed in a grisly accident… which destroyed his life and mine…and a prediction I made…and did it come true?

In between the two books, one on Neo-Platonism and the other on the Anthropocene, a lively exchange is happening. And also to my surprise, as I read about Plotinus, and the Divine Double, and there is a contract between the living and the dead…whatever the living report about the Dead must be accurate and true…and I sense a rumbling, from down below,a dark room, in the attic of my mind…moving from a well lit,book lined space…to some steep stairs that are getting darker…going down into the dark and then it is very dark…my companion ( my double?) has gone ahead of me to deal with the rumbling noise that is coming from the dark…deep down below and he has disappeared…I have a bat in my hand…I may have to deal harshly with what is up ahead…it is my turn to face the Dark…it is my turn…I am next…I am unprepared…to face this…no maps…and I don’t know where I am…and none of my books will show me anything…no definintions…no destinations…about this space…in the back of my mind…somewhere…and the rumbling from the dark…gets louder and louder…I am next…can I go back upstairs?.. to the light and safety of books and civilization?..or should I stay here, with my bat in hand, ready to face the black void…the rumbling has turned into a roar…and a Stranger-

The Vision is hard to put into words…


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My response to your response is:



incubating (present participle)

  1. (of a bird) sit on (eggs) in order to keep them warm and bring them to hatching.


brood · sit on · cover · bring forth

  • (especially in a laboratory) keep (eggs, cells, bacteria, embryos, etc.) at a suitable temperature so that they develop.

“the samples were incubated at 80°C for three minutes”

  • (be incubating something)

have an infectious disease developing inside one before symptoms appear.

“the possibility that she was incubating early syphilis”

  • develop slowly without outward or perceptible signs

Your descriptive response lands in the Ear of the H’ear’t within my field of Being. This is my Riff to You; You incubate with a New York Rhythm.Thank You for bringing forth your Response to my California Rhythm. I like the Picture too.

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Sorry, I couldn’t be more responsive this past week. I am slowly being squeezed for all the time my blood is worth. I have had to strain to catch up, but here I am.

I suggest a simple framing for Tuesday—What is meta-perception? An experiential inquiry…

With the interview on ‘going meta’ as a common point of reference, we can explore the shape of this particular move in real time through our virtually mediated, relatively shared sensoriums.

I have updated the topic title above, feel free to adjust to taste.

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Plan to be there,maybe a little late,taking Daughter to airport. Have a meta task before talking meta perception.

Just came across this quote from Huston Smith “The brain breathes mind like the lungs breathe air”…maybe Meta is a w(hole) to Breath in Infinity just a little bit like a scent of Jasmine-Orange blossoms walking with a lover in Spring time?

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I have no idea what is meant by meta-perception, Marco. It is confusing. Meta-cognition perhaps. That has a history. As a title to an experiential inquiry, I hope we can do better. I don’t get hooked by this title…I am puzzled…but I don’t feel compelled to show up.

Just to let you know, I have a lot of stuff brewing this week, too, and may not have the time to devote to this week’s vague cafe.

Maybe we should call it the Ultimately Vague Cafe!

And vague…and when vague…does that vague have a size or shape?

And when vague…whereabouts is vague?

And when vague…what does vague want to have happen?

Ed is away, Michael will be late, I just don’t have a sense of what is wanting to happen, if anything…and maybe we need to relax…I dunno…

I have looked at clouds from both sides now…

I am of two minds…maybe we can postpone until something vague has a chance to do whatever vague wants to have happen…maybe next week…next month??? To sustain attention on a weekly basis is getting sort of fragmenting…I have loved some of the Cafe…and recognize it is sort of fragile and needs more care than I perhaps am able to generate…

I am not attached to the Vague Cafe…it is over there somewhere…fuzzy…foggy…intangible…whatever…

meta-perception…whatever…postmodern drift…all dressed up and nowhere to go…

I have some life/death issues I have to deal with right now and as much as I love to chat I also feel that I have to think of my own psychic ecology…As the quality of our attention…and meta-attention is a value…and group life is so fragile…especially in the current election season…I am not sure I have much useful to contribute to meta-perception at the moment…but I can be open to that possibility…

So…I hope this is useful to someone…

And meta-perception…and vague…and meta-perception…anything else?

It is like a pretty meta- balloon I got at a party that has gone flat…and droops in the corner…

I need a rhythm, a pulse…a flash of color…still searching…is meta-perception sort of like synesthesia?

I like synesthesia…there is a lot of interesting research…articles…videos…etc…and experiential shit I know a lot about…I can generate interest in synesthesia…such a sexy…sly…serpentine word… s sounds…slithering in the grass…


I think this is a short and very clear intro to a vast topic of deep interest.

Can anyone work with this?

What is Synesthesia? An experiential Inquiry?

And is there a relationship between shape and sound?

Let’s get jiggy with it…

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I think I would like to make this one, though I do not know what is going on. I will do my best to be there. I think I can resume my undercover role at work and will be able to take an hour or two away.

Strange and stranger things keep happening. They are not happening to me, more of a happening with me as I progress further into unknown territory. I am ready to talk though I may just want to listen to you speak.

Edit: where did the talk about meta-cognition begin? In the recording or on the forum?