"Second-order" culture & the Axial Age II

I have my eye on those too (and Feuerstein as well) but I can’t justify the asking prices yet. :frowning_face:

Sigh. On quick glance I see that Vytautus Kavolis contributed and despite obviously engaging seems to miss some key ideas: “…since the integral consciousness does not seem to allow for either decisive judgment or a commitment to anything in particular…” (p. 170) “We know that there were mythic, magic, and presumably archaic elements in the Renaissance. What remains to be explored is their continuing presence within the mental structure of consciousness.” and “…a sociologist of culture is in some trouble when he asks how Gebser’s theory relates to his particular concerns.” (p. 172)
I guess Gebser doesn’t look “from the outside in” enough…

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Nicely put. (Though the image only occurred to me recently, it makes intuitive sense to me; I’m sure others … and obviously some who have engaged Gebser … would disagree.)

Back in the mid-90s, I led a Gebser reading-group in SF. Not unsurprisingly (well, for me at least, given the time and place and the motley assemblage who was willing to even give Gebser a go), there were two types of participants: those who rejected him (more or less straight out, because he didn’t make sense or his argument didn’t “add up”, whatever that meant) and who dropped out; and those who accepted him, even if they didn’t “get” all that I think he has to give, and who stuck around to the end. That has continued to be my “experience” with Gebser readers ever since.

In some cases, like your own experience, it is simply the spiritual side of his presentation. But that has interesting variations. Many of the group were local Rosicrucians and Martinists, what many mainstreamers would consider relatively whacked-out esotericists and “new-agers” (oh, and there were those too, there’s no denying that). You’d think for as open- (though their detractors thought “empty-”) minded as they were, some of them just couldn’t get their hearts and mind wrapped around Gebser’s Origin (Ursprung). They had no problem with the Cosmos or Cosmic Consciousness or the Grand Architect of the Universe, but Origin? Uh … no. Maybe it was just too vague for them. The more rationally minded, of course, simply accused Gebser of being new-agey (which I always liked since he predated the “movement” by almost half-a-century) or Procrustean in his argumentation. Details were not always forthcoming.

In America, of course, he didn’t show up on the scene until the late 80s as it is. And I don’t know how realistic it is that he might find acceptance, especially considering the timing (for here I wouldn’t underestimate the new-age phenomenon), but for the mainstream, well, it’s all uphill, isn’t it? Wasn’t it in the Jordan Hall clip that @johnnydavis54 posted that the American “thought scene” is dominated by Harvard, the Ivy League, and a few outliers, like U of Chicago, Berkeley and Stanford, so if you aren’t accepted there, your chances of gaining traction are slim at best. If anything’s going to happen, it’ll have to happen off the grid, so to speak, like here. The Jean Gebser Society keeps holding conferences, which is commendable. And Aaron Cheek has his Diaphany: a Journal and Nocturn, but he has only produced one volume thus far (2015).

Having said all this, one shouldn’t think that things here, in Gebser’s home country, are all that much different. He was certainly known – maybe not as much as Sloterdijk, but Gebser died long before philosophers got on TV. Besides the DTV edition of EPO and his Complete Works, all his other writings are out-of-print. The International Jean Gebser Society produced 21 volumes of Contributions to an Integral Worldview (Beiträge zur integralen Weltsicht) between 1984 and 2009. His admirers were dedicated and active, but the IJGS has also more or less shut down operations. Memory fades, membership fades, and it couldn’t find enough to sustain itself. And so it goes.

But, on the lighter side, and only because I wanted to fact-check a couple of my above statements, I literally stumbled across this blog post by Stuart Davis, of all people, which I wanted to share. It’s kinda long … he rambles, or is addicted to detail … but it’s an interesting take on ol’ Jean. It’s entitled Diaphany.

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Illuminating commentary, kind sir, and you’re right - not surprising.
Hehehe, I can imagine a future where Gebser is all but forgotten but the integral arrives anyway (likely after a sufficient period of crisis/opportunity forces some things). Then some cultural archaeologist finds all this stuff on whatever the information system is at that time and Gebser is finally hailed as the Petrarch figure of the new consciousness…
Or not…

re: Stuart Davis - Thanks for sharing! I think the rambling makes the piece. :grinning:
Basically we’ve had Big Mind for thousands of years, but we’re needing Big Heart to awaken with it.
Yup.

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Note that Whitehead dropped out of mainstream for more than 50 years, at least in part because of his more radical positioning of the divine within a larger philosophical framework (although the opacity of his text may also have played into the lack of attention during that period), and Whitehead, while still not exactly mainstream, is now an accepted part of the canon of modern philosophy. So maybe there is hope for Gebser, too - currents of thought come and go, and new ideas sometimes converge with older ones in such a way that they re-energize the older texts and approaches.

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Well, as our CCafé today showed, he’s still alive and well in some quarters, so there’s even hope that he may not have to be completely resuscitated. :thinking:

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Wonderful talk and contributions from everyone. Thanks!

I just wanted to tie one more thing in while I’m thinking about it. My “plug” for world history should also include its potential as a grounding for interdisciplinary approaches. All history is the history of something or someone, some present way of relating to the world - indeed it literally dies when cut off from lived experience (as you all demonstrated in the exercise I threw out there). Of course, I say potential because historiographical turf is just as jealously guarded as in any other field (“Sit down, sir! This is Medieval England, not Tudor England…!”) Still, I like to believe that world history has been opening up a conversational space in which an argument can at least be maintained for “profound [not complete] mutual comprehension”…

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Agreed. I’m amazed how much we have covered and sense that we have started to develop our own rhythm of reading. I sense that a direction is emerging out of all this and we can get a better handle on how this project fits with our personal enrichment program. I think it is good that we took the extra time to reflect upon our unique histories around history. A meta-history emerges. Thanks, TJ. And this seminar has become very enriching. I feel much more grounded than I did before. What first appears as overwhelming has become manageable. With a little help from our friends!

It is a bitter thing to be a woman. We can see the first signs of the feminist struggle in Medea. She is also a refugee, seeking safe harbor and she becomes one the weirdest characters in theater history. The complexity of her character is a product of the written word, a different kind of character than was possible for Homer. Later, when the novel becomes possible, women writers will speak and write for themselves.

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