The Language of Desire and the Search for the Illusive Personal Pronoun 'I'

Your Hands did the Talking John:
Universe-a-Hologram i the Palm of the Hand

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(note: this was (mostly) written earlier today and now poorly edited six hours later ... my mood, my stance, my self has changed...I post regardless...perhaps I will edit it one day...)

Prestige
Noun

  • widespread respect and admiration felt for someone or something on the basis of a perception of their achievements or quality

Origin:


mid 17th century (in the sense ‘illusion, conjuring trick’): from French, literally ‘illusion, glamor’, from late Latin praestigium ‘illusion’, from Latin praestigiae (plural) ‘conjuring tricks’. The transference of meaning occurred by way of the sense ‘dazzling influence, glamor’, at first depreciatory.


  • 40 days ago I decided to start counting my days literally, or maybe more so literarily. Based on some undefined timeline my son and I created for each other, I have 20,000 days remaining in life +/- 7500 days. I am on day 40. I select a theme, word or writing topic and that is my focus for the day (most days I give this exercise only a passing thought). Prestige arose for me today, maybe based upon one of last night’s dreams in which I was a college journalist, a wallflower observing popular characters around campus. I was at a gathering of outgoing characters and felt both shy in the face of their presence while also excited and fully present, writing in a notebook trying to capture their core, to capture the zeitgeist of this budding scene. As a self-deprecating self….I wondered what would happen if I took the path of the great and externally admirable. If I took a stake on my claim of the world. If I was the center of attention. If I stated my desires and allowed for those desires to be front and center and real and real for others. In real life….I always seem to desire to take a back seat. This is the evasive self.

  • As I review this post of your John (and the thread’s theme in general), I wonder…who am I really? Illusive yes….elusive…yes. Both are such similar terms that I had grown up mistaken about there true meaning. And what determines illusive/elusive? Illusive is the illusory self…sounds Buddhist, reminds me of that drive to seek reality and core consciousness outside of the sensuous body…for if the self is illusive then it is an illusion, body included. Elusive self speaks of a self that more or less exists in the physical world…it includes the body, it includes a reason to search for this spectral self haunting us as we trek both invisible landscapes and terrestrial terrain. Yet this is but only two labels for the self…illusive and elusive. What of the allusive self? Intrusive self? Alluded self? Evasive self? Reflected self? Diffracted self? I am all and none of these and can both find and lose myself in each moment of intuitive journeying.

These words arise from the selfish self. The lower self’s desired outcomes…and like any of my selfish selves, I rarely allow for this voice to play a lead role. Perhaps I posted here to let you know of this unspoken feeling (perhaps felt in others) that this Clean type of languaging can be felt as intrusive, unrealistic, unproductive.

I have no Netflix time on my mind. I am learning to find a method to keep up with the voices worthy of being heard. I wonder if what I am posting now is worthy of your time.

  • THe solitary self is the self actualizing self…this is the lone wolf in action

Yes, you say its been three years coming. Perhaps your desired outcomes are finally coming through. Perhaps it is time too to reach underground and hear the echos of my own caves.

Geometries; Slide-rule; conveyor; high tech. Gadgets; factory farm

(though it has its place, and, as I read Bergson, neither a materialism nor idealist, am learning to find a stronger sense of what it means to seek out a reality that includes the body as the central node of perception and memory)

  • where is perceiver? No others can help, not Bergson…not books…new cosmology without a guide….

This is where, when back in the known cosmos, the reliable cosmos…Bergson and his cosmology is real and helpful. He is a guide, yes…but not of maps or even some known territory.
maybe there is something good on Netflix that you would prefer to watch, Doug?

I have no Netflix time on my mind.

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And when this Clean type of language can be felt as intrusive, unrealistic, unproductive…what would you like to have happen?

You are free to ignore my question and if it is not useful please skip. As for myself I take responsibility for my own style of presentation and if you don’t like I accept that, too. I am not only speaking to you in this thread, I am speaking to others as well.

And perhaps felt in others…and when felt by others perhaps…

I find this rather odd. You have reached out personally on more that one occasion, asking for help, advice, and making recommendations to me. You did this by private messaging me a few hours ago. I wonder why you have made an effort to be friendly and supportive and a few hours later make this public display of boredom about my best efforts. That what I have offered may be flawed and the timing sometimes off I still feel that on balance I have co-created conditions with the group for a useful experience.

That you may not share that usefulness is clearly stated ( you weren’t there) and I won’t insist that you or anyone work this way. I offer my best efforts.

I can appreciate that your mood swings, back and forth, in many directions, can be unexpected, and that your illusive and allusive 'I’s can create mixed messages. This is an almost universal human condition. I am receiving those mixed messages with some alarm and also aware that it is easy to get triggered in public arenas, when sharing intense experiences, which I often do. I hope we can have differences that can make differences rather try to split up attention with multiple parts fighting for the microphone .

I consider you a fine person with a fine intellect and that you wish me no harm even as I find your mixed signals worrisome.

As I am sure the others here may not want to indulge in a public brawl, and that these online networks are very fragile, my main concern is that you get the support that you need in this difficult time.

And that I may have narcissistic tendencies on occasion and a wounded self to deal with is very true…I try to be as transparent about my desired outcomes as possible… and when I get triggered I try to be as gentle with myself and with others as I can.

And I wonder if this a normal conversation for you? It feels very normal for me which is why I often tend to avoid the normal as much as possible. Normal conversations tend to end up in rivalries, competitions, rankings. That has been the norm for me. Our factory model educations make us try to divide and conquer, rotating the role of victim, predator, and rescuer. The Drama Triangle.

I prefer not to get caught up by the Drama Triangle but when it happens I wonder how we can get off of it? Can there be something that can be learned? I prefer curiosity than contempt and so must be mindful of how these online written communiques can backfire as the tone of voice and gestures do not always come across well in writing. What might have been meant as a joke comes off as flip or sarcastic. I can be guilty of both and if you have been triggered in someway I hope we can both separate behavior from identity. I know you are a very good person even if your behavior confuses me. You may have a positive intention behind your critical remarks about my performance and I wonder if that is true? Is there a way that you can share that positive intention in a way that I can receive it?

And I am very glad that you are acknowledging that you are an artist - a change at the level of identity! That Self-Identity has taken a long time for you to publically declare .I believe it is the first time that I have ever heard you declare that. It has always been clear to me that you are exceptionally gifted and wish you the very best. I hope that you might take what triggers you and find a size and a shape and make some art out of it, Your sketches and improvised verse have great charm and I hope you will do more of that kind of performance in the future.

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Dear John,

Can we talk tomorrow sometime on the Zoom line or old fashioned phone call? I am attempting below to give voice to my mess above.

First, an apology. I posted because I promised a post. Seems I have cast slop before angels. I had intended to convey (which, upon review, seems half of what I had written also is lost/ has been deleted) that my selfish self only wants to get on with the show, only wants to have my needs met, only wants to tune out your best efforts so it can get on with the show. When “felt in others” I meant that perhaps others too have this selfish self arise in silent speech, not solely in this case but in any case that an individuals needs are not met at that moment. I know we all do. As you say above the “I” 's mixed-messages are a universal trait. When I place it here, warts and all we must work through it. I would much rather meet in person or voice to voice, face to face so I can best explain myself, let here I am with little time trying to explain myself.

When I add in these thoughts it is to demonstrate a meta-reflection… the self that is evaluating the self in real time and then the self that is writing about the self that is evaluating the various selves in real time.

Yes, normal. All too normal and it is a conversation type that I have tuned out all my life. Our conversations are para- normal.

This sentence alone is enough to prove that I ave been heard. To prove that you know me. This is likely one of my most desired outcomes…to know one another…to cut to the chase means to me to cut out as much normal conversation as possible to reach that paranormal level.


It is late for me and I will review what has been said when I am able tomorrow. Please consider the gentle offer to have a brief conversation tomorrow beyond this limited forum form.

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Thanks, Doug, and I welcome a private communique so that we can make time to make better sense of our all too human predicament.Having to focus attention upon a group dynamic is sometimes a strain and I confess I miss signals that in reflection I should have given more attention to. Message me and let me know when it is most convenient for us to communicate. And I am very pleased to get to know you better. It is a privilege and an honor to tune in with you in a live call,

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Here is our seance carried forth this morning. As you mentioned the disconnect from my side made the conversation a challenge yet I am truly grateful that you provided coherence throughout. I hope to have the opportunity to review this one soon. Thank you John for the taking time out of your day.

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Thank You John & Doug for this Intimate Engagement of Two Friends that are Friends of Mine! Here’s The Music that came to the Heart in I & What I have Chosen to Make Happen from your Examples.

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A para-communique from the Angel Michael. Shine on you Crazy Diamond! Perfect.

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And thank you, Doug, for the stepping into the spotlight and doing your solo in relationship with my solo. Two solitary souls released from solitary confinement.

Meta-questions

And what kind of coherence? And what determines coherence/incoherence/decoherence?

And drama triangles and drama circles? What happens when we turn the drama triangle into a drama circle? ( John seems to catch a vibe from Doug’s description of flat screens and circles)

And Solitary Self and Artistic Mode…

Doug-" Fluctuaing with different metaphors and fear to let it come out=

And where is fear?
And what happens right before fear?
And what happens after fear?

And Doug, as Artist, my desired outcome, its to reach inside another person and perhaps see their own artistry…other’s shine…

And can that happen? What needs to happen to make that happen? ( necessary conditions)

And how can I enter another person’s metaphorical landscape with respect and integrity?

And how do I determine I/we?

And as language users, with entangled minds, what do we want to have happen?

And does Clean Language function as para-language or a meta-language?

What determines meta-communication from para-communication?

And what is the relationship of the above to the adjacent? ( I am getting the sign of the cross)

"we focus on the hara, the place two inches below your belly button. I’ve been encouraging my students to actually put their hands there when they feel overwhelmed, or super isolated, or scared. Just put your hands on the hara. " A para-message from Brother Michael

And Brother Doug…are there any other questions you have for Brother John about his practice of Clean Language?

And once again, Doug, thanks for your feedback, from your lucid perceptions, into our group dynamic…giving feedback to another soul, especially if they are lost, take a lot of skill… and how do we hear the meta-message in a person’s message when it is garbled and filled with static?

And listening with the third ear and the third eye and perhaps ( thanks to Brother Michael) with the touch of the third hand?

May the merit of our inquiry be shared with all sentient beings…

“And if equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.” -W.H. Auden

Can anyone make a representation of this that makes sense to you? A map, sketch, song, gesture?

And these are the kinds of questions that Gregory Bateson claimed are where Angels Fear to tread…

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Omnipresence, not disappearance…screen and image fused…no involuntary rebirth…a vaster rebirth…mega-multi rebirth…thanks, Daniel, for your perfect timing!

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Hi @johnnydavis54 and @Douggins: I just want to thank you for the conversation you recorded in the wake of the exchange above. I feel that you both modeled a lot of care, a lot of other-awareness and self-reflexivity (and meta-awareness) in how that played out.

I could sense some of Doug’s prior expressed impatience even in my own field—an impatience with myself, with the creative process, with the pacing of events. Why can’t things move faster in the direction of my desired outcomes? Why can’t I bring forth what is within me, so it will stop torturing me?! Finding a relational I perhaps offers some way out of the labyrinth of the self.

Thanks, @DAN_COLL. I look forward to hearing Bob Thurman’s reflections soon. A Buddhaverse awaits?

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Hi Marco! What you mean by Buddhaverse? Would it be a teaching of the Buddha ? If so, I´d be very glad to share… Thanks for the feedback

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Hi Daniel, I got the term from another talk by Robert Thurman, here:

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Yeah,it’s like watching paint dry…it takes nine months to make a baby…patience to bake a loaf of bread from scratch…time is a preserver and a destroyer…

I do hope I am not dogmatic about clean language practice. I am open to other practices, too, but I always circle back to where I started from and this is not arbitrary, I leave a trail, so that I can return with something different to that starting place. Iteration becomes recursive. Doug was aware of a second order. We are starting to share a vocabulary built upon feedback between dimensions.

The difference between typical chat fests, food fights, infinite crap and the ritual process…where projections and counter-projections are temporarily suspended…

And then the entering into the weave of the others complex mind-nature rhythms…a stranger event, much like a bird watcher in the wild,listening and tuning in without interfering with the poetic creature, unfolding her song…it is a sacred participant-observer, not to be confused with typical passive-aggressive dynamic of most conventional occasions.

Strindberg once wrote a one act play called The Stronger. Two women at a table. One does all the talking. The other woman sits and says nothing. At the end of the hour, the puzzled audience, who must decide, which character dominates? It seems to me, in the production I saw, the legendary actress, Geraldine Page, was a very creative silent partner.

A film that makes use of this same motif, a silent character vs. a talking character, is dramatized in Ingmar Bergman’s Persona. I’m sure Bergman was resonating with his fellow Swedish artist, Strindberg. Both of them are considered very slow.

What I love about doing Clean with others is the silence that often follows a cluster of questions…the answer emerges out of a cluster of silence and patterns…silence…and more patterns…and over a long session…some of which, when dealing with a bind, have lasted for days and many gut wrenching hours…there is often an obvious combining together of disparate elements that would never be integrated through conversations, of the finite or infinite variety…as when the baby i first smells the air and starts to wail…

As in the exchange between Doug and I, I sense there is a wide spectrum of affective-liminal zones that can occur across groups and within groups…and this is a delicate balancing between symmetries and asymmetries…

As our communities mature…and the sociograms of the Masters and Slaves transitions to a new sociogram that is without Masters or Slaves…the language of such a relational configuration will no doubt sound and feel very odd during the transition…

Once again may we co-create a play space…where the tensions of phase space can arise as new desired outcomes can convert to metaphor and begin to fly…and where there then become a sociality that is little concerned for the tormenting language of winner or losers. This happens person to person and group to group…and feedback is the glue that hold this unity in diversity together.

We only teach what we need to learn, a science of the lyrical…

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This is a quantum scientist Lama that studied whit the Dalai Lama for 9 years

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image

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I guess I just don’t have enough bandwidth (and I am being literal) to watch this. It gets stuck soon after starting and can’t seem to load up to continue. I can watch YouTube, so it’s confusing, as usual.
I am looking for an alternate Internet Provider but there’s a monopoly of four companies where I live, none of them admirable, alas. I hope to listen to this as a podcast one day! Seems like an important exchange…

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I am floating in the same boat as you! I had my first visit to my office in almost three weeks (my core source of internet). Catching up on some of the conversations here.

This should be the audio to the same conversation:
https://metapsy.cosmos.media/2020/06/GMT20200417-225503_Cosmos-Caf-mp3cut.net.mp3

And YouTube link:

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Yeah, Alan is brilliant and a generous/generative human being. He taught here in my area for many years, both at University and then through Sangha gatherings. He’s still teaching online and just got funds together to start a long-term retreat center in CO where people can stay and practice for up to 3 years or even longer.