Epistemology and Phenomenology of the Fifth Dimension, A Clean Language Re-presentation

Recorded 24 March 2020

John and Doug continue where the conversation closed in the Cosmos Café [2020-03-20] - Countering the CoronaVirus of the Mind discussion. After reporting from their quarters John leads Doug with a Clean Language Session


The book that we are discussing at the begining of the call is John Uri Lloyd’s Etidorpha

@Douggins, @johnnydavis54 ~ just want to let you know, I enjoyed your session — especially the meta-reflections on the evolution of our transconscious milieu, as well as the letting go into a clean language exploration, which felt heart-centered to me.

I listened in two halves, while making breakfast (pancakes & eggs) and then cleaning up the kitchen in a semi-trance state. It didn’t feel like a podcast, however, and I found myself reflecting on the unusual genre (or lack thereof) of what we’re doing here. I felt less like I was consuming an audio product and more like immersing in an energetic space. I believe this has something to do with the imaginal body.

I would like to reiterate (to thus amplify) John’s closing intention that we focus attention on “health, sanity, and the sacred” and a “space where weirdos and visionaries feel comfortable enough to open up to the possibilities of the unusual time we’re in now.” I hope that Seth will join for a future session, and that others will participate as well.

My mind circles like the hands of bubble clock, floating on currents of sea foam, lapping the rocky shore.


We need multiple descriptions of our experience, Marco. Thank you.

And you are your own metaphor, Marco. A new kind of poetry may be in the new kind of air that we breathe. And thanks for your support. Your feedback is greatly appreciated and your meta-comments make me feel warm and friendly and much healthier!


YES ,John & Doug I would like to Participate in a Mini-Workshop with You Infinite Cafe’ Rascals!!!


Great! My friend, Seth, who is a fine person as well as a good clean language practitioner can join us. We want to set the time to convenience Doug. Seth prefers afternoon and so do I but we can be flexible. Hey Doug does this sound good for you?


I am good ,except for Monday ,have a Skype at 11am.So lets bring the dance forward!!!Awesome

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We would do it this weekend. We will try to do the afternoon so that it will be easier for you on the West Coast to attend. This will be a lot of fun.

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“Instinctual knowledge, such as is supremely developed in bees, remains latent in human beings and can be retrieved by diving deep into the generative force of life within the primary instincts that we each still have, at the outset of the acts in which they express themselves, prior to their being interpreted by intellect. Instinct is a sympathy such that, if it becomes capable of extending its object and of reflecting upon itself — in other words, if it becomes disinterested — transforms into an intuition that exceeds the analytical capabilities of the intellect. Our extrasensory perception is an intuitive reassertion of instinct.” — Jason Reza Jorjani, Prometheus and Atlas, p223

Yesterday I had a profound experience.

While seated at the playset, eating sand dishes served by a dark-haired sandied-bottom child server (restaurants still in business at this household), I noticed the mosquitoes swerving about my ankles, nipping at elbows taking wavy linear journeys about my peripheral vision. Like my relationship with poison ivy (that benefited from me treating it as an ally rather than enemy) I have tried a different stance with insects. Flys buzzing are no longer pests but alterno-realm mini-souls sent as reminders to pay attention, contemplate death, etc. Mosquitoes are akin to humans akin to viruses. We each have a creative relationship to what Bergson calls the Élan vital.

I cupped this mosquito in my hand to prevent penetration on the arm’s vein. I opened the hand and allowed it to be released. I had my glance elsewhere, responding to my sandy server, thinking the mosquito had lifted off and was sent on its way with an unspoken reminder to stay away from my blood. As I finished my sand-cake with the other hand I began to feel a strong energy pulsing in my palm. The same sensation that might occur when in a meditative session observing the subtle body energies or when another’s touch is felt and the sensation at the loci of contact is exponentially increased (we can wear clothing without much notice but why such vigilance when this occurs?). It had not lifted off; it had been crushed just enough to remain a pulsing gesticulating nervous tic of a creature. The mosquito, a tiny presence, was somehow emitting so much energy. How did this amount of energy stimulation occur from such a tiny source? Also, the more I examined the insect the more life it emitted. It became a being equipped with its own tiny “soul” …I began telepathically communicating with it. There was a deep emotional connection, a profound moment of understanding and a strange sorrow. I began to notice other mosquitoes, each with their strong desire to suck blood and each hovering around waiting for the right moment to strike. Or maybe they were interested in responding to this event…

“Then, when a memory reappears in consciousness, it produces on us the effect of a ghost whose mysterious apparition must be explained by special causes. In truth, the adherence of this memory to our present condition is exactly comparable to the adherence of unperceived objects to those objects which we perceive; and the unconscious plays in each case a similar part.”
– Bergson, Matter and Memory, pp. 144 New York: Zone Books, 2005

Last night, one dream pieced together what I had not consciously realized during the day. IN this dream, Jorjani and I shared time together in some unknown space, a room with little else…more like a thought of a room not quite fulfilled in imagery (this was a dream from the first 2-3 hours of my sleep, aka non-REM sleep…we still dream but typically differently than REM dreams in which more vivid imagery might occur). I talk to him about plant consciousness. He describes to me the experiments in which plants know when their owner express a distressful thought. He talks of Sheldrake’s sense of being stared at and animal’s knowledge of their owners returning even from far distances and unusual routines. I equate this with my mosquito experience. I tell Jorjani that the fly has an all seeing eye, that although it seems to be a low lifeform, it has a life nonetheless….Jorjani then tells me he is residing with Mishlove and the Thinking Allowed studio crew exploring this realm of consciousness, gaining insight into these various lifeforms. Although he has been removed from a professional career at this time he is still making a valiant attempt to make sense of what he terms as the spectral realm.

I remember the dream but what I wrote was mostly erased as the nights water bottle condensed droplets on to the page, as if to remind me that these imaginal experiences are fleeting.

Whatever was experienced in the dream is now but a felt experience not the definitive integrative theory of existence as I had developed yesterday and last night…a constant re-presentation of the chaotic “unconscious”


Looking forward. Will there be an audio only podcast, like usual? My (and others?) slo-tech DSL set up cannot always handle videos!
Thank you.


This should be a temp. link to the recording. Your tech buddy is slacking! Since now working from home I haven’t learned of a way to process audio. Should be a quick learning curve and an easy fix. If any other videos need an audio companion let me know!


Thank you!!!


Hello guys, another conversation on the topic! I´ve been reading and contemplating a lot on the puzzle, as I really have seen a great and meaningful purpose on the subject under construction here. But there are so many different pieces of knowledge to correlate, that, if you are motivated as I am, we could get what branch each one is more familiar with, and bring it in a complementary approach (as Neil Bohr would suggest, as to avoid the classical physics paradigm that insists to be used in scientific research). I have a lot of material extracts on the way, from Aristotelis, Kant and Leibiniz on metaphysics philosophy, Wittgenstein and Derrida on linguistics, Heiddeger and Bohr on quantum physics and Jung and friends on metapsychology. But, for today, I´ll just share some buddhist statements (without sutra references :neutral_face:)* aiming to answer some of Johnny questions. Thanks for reading.

  • Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are related

I haven´t realized emptiness in a stable way, I just know how to describe it based on having completed the “sight” level of approach, recognized by a respected Lama. Emptiness is beyond form and is non-originated or subject to cessation. Emptiness sounds unconfortable for most people, as they tend to assimilate with nothingness, nihilism, and so on. But the true understanding of this “concept” is pretty fulfilling when the counterpart of clear awareness of unconditioned perception of reality (a gradual perfected experience - see 10 bhumis of enlightenment).

Maybe the ideia of God is closer to the point

When we talk about emptiness (or voidness) we are referring to the absence of individual, thus limited and conditioned, experience of reality. Therefore, a preliminary effort to eliminate conditioned experiences, is the realization that our sensorial, emotional, cognitive, conceptual thinking and self-perception are result of our processes of individuation, or ego development.

That process refers to the second noble truth of S. Buddha, that indicates the cause of suffering – our human karmic tendency of ignoring that those so-called five aggregates that leads us to perceive ourselves as an independent entity from our bodily-separated, world (the phenomena: people, nature, cities, society and so on).

So the preliminary effort we are talking about before is to realize the awareness of nonduality, that, in short terms means that our inner and outer world are co-dependent. In other words, the quality of our supposed external experience (that in our death-hour will be what we will remember as our lives) is influenced on how our inner world is configured.

I hope we can find out the answer to that one. The scriptures state extrasensory perception, and ultimately omniscience (10th bhumi). Lucid Dreaming is a factual practice among medium leveled students. The culture of a New World!

Thanks for the questions.


And as I am a transitioning person, between maps and models, I salute you Daniel for your honesty and curiosity. It is out of the inquiry of competent and compatible persons that new worlds can arise. Culture workers who have gone to the edge may need new models and new maps if they are to communicate well and translate adequately. This to me is what the Bottisatvah must learn to do better within the culture that she finds herself within. Our planetary culture is wobbling very badly.

And co-dependent…and what determines co-dependent from co-interdependent among vast inequities…

this for me is to adhere to a “coomunicatory principle” of self and other as within mind…the mind is not in the body the body is in the Mind…and thus it is an ever present meta-question…where are you/I perceiving this phenomena from? And when in a lucid dream where is the first person I perceiving from? There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in a materialist philosophy.

This is what Kasttup is trying to locate with his alters and dissociative processing. This requires a language of interior depths, the first person, which many materialists reduce to epiphenomena. The language of the philosophical discourse of the academy , which is entrenched in silos and eager to serve the military-industrial-infotainment complex ( what Gebser might call the deficient mental) is not going to capture this kind of interior complexity without experiential investigation… hence the need to use metaphor and other tropes…so with what is the instrument do we use to collect this kind of data? Certainly not with a microscope.

Science and art draw upon these forms to communicate with although little attention is given to the actual arising of such metaphors…this would be to make the arising and disappearance a conscious process rather than a hidden and perhaps occult process…

And when you as a perciever can locate in perceptual space size and a shape you can dissolve that into the co-arising co-dependence OR we can convert the percept into a metaphor…and work with analogies and narratives and mythic mind…this is the path of the Visionary…and the two can co-exist in the same person and within a group dynamic of persons who are interested in shared realities…and openess to the Imaginal…which is not just reducible to the subjective but has an inter-objective aspect.

Philosopher Thomas Nagel once asked " What is it like to be a bat?" He claimed the question can’t be answered. I think this can’t be answered by an academically trained philosopher.

But a child of five or a poet could make sense of this question. I think dancers do this kind of meta-analysis through gesture and movement. There is a deep relationship between sound and body…and I find echolocation is not so foreign to us if we would stop limiting ourselves to what can be described in the 3 dimensional , objectivist bias.

And this is a very big leap to make…maybe it is not a leap…maybe we just need to turn around and ask what is behind us…and from the Fifth Dimension there are ranges of experience/affect/intellect that are not accessible to the conventional set up of the current materialist/physicalist paradigm. This experiential process is addressed more directly in the Video titled Immunity and the Imaginal Body That video is a good companion to this one. We are just beginning to “flesh out” this meta-reality. Epistemic-ontologico-phenomology. We are a performance by the Territory.

" The activities or the acts of God are commonly divided into ordinary and extraordinary. But it is well to bear in mind that God does nothing out of order."-Leibniz


Hello friends! This conversation was getting really interesting, and I owe this answer to Johnny… I took a while because I have been making an effort to have a reasonable theoretical basis that would take into account epistemology, phenomenology and ontology, which were a group of conceptual references that I have observed on this blessed community, as a means to develop a shared language (complementary to metaphors, analogies, etc; using inter-subjectivity aiming to share, if possible, objective conclusions of a deepest collective apprehension of reality – which naturally induces us to the various expressions of the arts; and in fact Johnny skillfully exemplified that as the purer way (e.g., the spontaneity of a child’s gestures and poetry as essentially equivalent as analytical meta-objects – and I believe that we can, indeed, share conclusions that are not restricted to the theory of reality awareness limitations related cognitive language as described by Wittgenstein. Although in the present moment, that fits not only by academic fields of natural sciences, philosophy or mathematics, but also by subjects that depend on a wider consensus of society (in a narrow sense, as opposed to complementary, as it assumes a tendency for more restricted consensus due to the uncountable different limited perceptions from individual bubbles of reality). Now we enter in the various problematic matters of politics, laws, work, moral values and, at the paradigm of neoliberal economy (that obviously promotes social inequalities that makes make the news about the COVID19 comparable to sensationalist gossip magazines if compared to the number of deaths from hunger in Africa). The kind of ideology badly supported by the distortion of Darwin’s evolutionary theory, which highlighted in his work the need for the sense of collective equanimity for the survival of the human species. (to be continued…)


This is music to my cognitive ears, Daniel, please keep the themes and motifs you are developing in your loving solos going. I catch your vibe. I think we willl have to learn to sing and dance and think all at the same time! And after sensing the bright light in your communique I can relax more and more, feeling the support that comes from allies, even at a great physical distance, are not so distant as our entangled subtle bodies dance and work with the synesthetic overlaps of colors and shapes and sizes , which is child like as you say. We make more concrete our abstractions, and make more elastic and flexible our language, in this forum., as we practice making coherent patterning together in turbulent times. If we can support each other as we try to make sense, as you are doing, I am ever hopeful .Much thanks and deep bows. We are are indeed a blessed community.


Such words coming from a wise being leads me to realize that the use of the principle of complementarity in dialogue leads us to our natural energy states of loving kindness, compassion, jubilous joy and equanimity.
Based on what I have read on the conversations of this community, I feel like I´m on the company of Buddha´s age aryas, and I´m really glad not to feel alone on the motivation of sharing what I suppose may bring relief and positive spiritual income to even a single noble man or woman of this group. I feel blessed to get the chance of find a full-of-merits space by coincidence (or more accurately Jung/Pauli´s synchronicity quantics). May your realization of genuine bodhicitta be the means for your/others Awekening.

All the best!