And then it gets Weirder...

Donner is the fictional President of the USA in Butler’s “Parable” who contributed to the downfall of civilization.

I don’t express myself the way that you do. I’m not here to sell a book or to get my research funded, or even acquire status upon the totem pole of academia. Hence, I share and express myself here without motive and therefore, with nothing to lose or gain.

And I don’t always censor my thoughts or ideas because there are no thought police around to arrest me. The only instance in which I find it necessary to apply any circumspection to what I say or think, for the sake of sensitivity towards others beliefs, is when I am speaking to children. I have enough faith in the intelligentsia on this platform to safely and soundly apply my thoughts and ideas to their own beliefs and simultaneously avoid offense.

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I hope that you will continue to freely express what you are thinking in whatever format or style that you choose. I love reading your posts (at least the ones that I can understand) and I am glad that you brought this to my attention, though it will not change anything about the way I express myself. As I am hoping that you will not place such limitations upon yourself in fear of causing offense or making others uncomfortable.

Ideas which cause discomfort in others are usually the most powerful kind and revved up for energy.

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Thank you Katina. You can rely on me to respect your space and mode of operation, and if I don’t, then call me on it! I promise not to bite your head off if you do.

Here we agree 100%. I look forward to future discussions.

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I remember participating in an online community which did identify itself as “Christian” or religious in nature and it was horrific, G! These folks were all over the place. Arguing, weeping and gnashing their teeth at one another. I only continued long enough to try and direct my comments towards restoring unity among the site’s participants. After that, I was Audi! (Ahem, old school term for “Out of there” - “Gone”). The moderator asked me to stay on but I couldn’t because it was getting too creepy and more difficult to filter out the genuine gems of thought from the toxic table talk that had consumed the site’s objective. I won’t reveal the name of the site but I vowed to stay away from the online marketplace of ideas after that experience.

Hence, I approached “Infinite Conversations” (IC) with similar trepidation flavored with a bit of pessimism. So, please do not dash my hopes that this is somehow different and better than my previous attempts at participating in such forums.

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No, I don’t think that Butler’s ideas are dangerous, there is no such animal. Idolatry, however is extremely dangerous and destructive to the human spirit.

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I’m not sure I know what “idolatry” is. On the surface, it would appear to be the worship of images in place of, or representing, the divine. Aren’t there some religions that practice this - I’m thinking of Hinduism, for example. In what sense is what they do “destructive to the human spirit”? Hinduism, from my brief experience travelling in Asia and my encounter with friends who are followers of the Hindu faith, seems to be one of the most peacable and joyous of Earth’s many religions - I wish more people could share in their spirit. So have I got this wrong?

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Not only are their religions that practice idolatry but also cultures and nations. Idolatry is elevating objects of human desire over the human will or God’s will (as it applies to religion). It is deception via one’s own ego.

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And though there are many forms and expressions of idolatry, both ancient and modern. Today, we have not moved very far from ancient idolatry. In the ancient world, they took a piece of gold or silver or wood and carved or formed an idol, thus worshipping the works of men’s hands. Today we don’t use images, but we still see men worshipping themselves, projected to infinite proportions. Man simply thinks of himself, projects this into infinity, and worships that. That is his god. That is exactly what idolatry does. A trap door to ego worship.

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Someone said ( I can’t remember who)," You should read a critic not for his opinion but for his style." Katina and Mr. G got lots of style. And it dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing!

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Doo Wop - Doo Wop - Doo Wop!

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The most devastating and modern expression of idolatry on a personal level is substance abuse or drug addiction.

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Why bother with an idol? Just go straight to the source. Or perhaps, that is exactly what the idolater is trying to avoid or escape. With Earthseed, it is deceptive to cause others to think that they are “shaping God”. Get outta here! You are merely projecting some aspect of your ego onto the infinite.

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Again, I’m not sure I agree. I accept your idea of idolatry for the moment, although I need to think about it some more. I think that drugs are often perceived as the lesser of two evils by the people who use/abuse them. It is not some thing they worship, but rather some devil they hate, but not as badly as something else (e.g endless poverty, abusive and violent relationships, community indifference, etc.). Clearly there are some enamored of the “trip” they provide, but I rather doubt these are the majority.

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It becomes idolatry when the drug user ascribes unwarranted power to the substance. Power that is greater than their own human will to put it down. Graven little pills or fluids, chopped up, injected, snorted into the body with the belief that the substance itself is what empowers you. And 2016 research finding s in a “Study of People in Treatment” shows that there is narcissistic vulnerability to addiction. As well as a tendency to isolate, socially.

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I have nothing against the use of drugs for recreation or medical treatment, etc. It is the abuse of drugs that mimics the relationship between the idolater and the idol. THe idolater gets to a point where he/she has lost all confidence in the human will to act without first connecting with (ingesting) the idol. The creator submits his will to an object of his creation. Sends shivers down my spine.

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My sense is, it’s a slippery slope to ask others to clean up their language in order not to trigger sensitivities we (whoever is asking) may have regarding controversial, historically fraught topics, such as religious faith. Eventually, they either begin censoring themselves (if only subtly at first, eventually more severely), or they leave to find more open venues where they feel they can express themselves more freely.

On the other hand, when we are triggered, the same dynamic applies. If we become used to being triggered and saying nothing, eventually we will begin censoring ourselves, too—either way, authentic communication shuts down. How to keep our hearts open, and our minds focused on the questions that matter, while speaking our truths? I welcome the inquiry!

We are walking a bit of a tightrope on this site, which I hope is welcoming to (indeed, embracing of) individuals of all spiritual faiths, at the same time it (or rather we, the site’s stewards) would insist on tolerance and sensitivity between participants whether or not they express a particular faith.

It may also be worth pointing out the double standard that can exist regarding Christianity (or Christian-associated ideas), compared with other world religions, in the postmodern West. For example, in our Aurobindo sessions, no one has expressed any concern with performing chants from the Vedas and Upanishads in conjunction with our meditations. Would we feel the same about a Christian prayer—or reading from the Psalms—in the context of reading a Christian mystic such as Teilhard de Chardin? (I would hope it would be OK.) It’s notable that some of our Life Divine participants are pretty hardcore Aurobindo devotees, and we’ve allowed them to express their enthusiasm for his teachings, without interference. On the whole, I feel this has enriched the group reading experience—however, I can say this only because we have also allowed members (including myself at times, e.g., on the problem of evil, and Johnny on the heteronormativity of the ashram) to express constructive and comparative criticisms of Aurobindo’s legacy.

There have been moments, it’s true, when I’ve felt that the “faithful” (aka “kool-aid drinkers”—even our Holochain discussion involved this difficulty) have not really heard the critiques, replying that if we only really understood Aurobindo, or read his other texts, our critical attitudes would disappear. Yet if all we did here was intellectual critique, and we could only speak in properly sanitized, secular, safe, non-potentially offensive terms, it would get boring really fast.

Of course, none of this applies to truly violent (or violating) or hurtful communication, which I don’t see happening here.

I hope we’re still on topic with Weird Studies! I suppose the Jesus experience belongs in the canon of the Weird—so perhaps this still relates. Speaking for myself, I enjoy it when people express their personal faiths (this entire project is an expression of my faith)—WHEN they also allow others to express their own faith, or lack thereof. Thus interesting contrasts, connections, and collaborations can occur. Regarding such speech, I would only ask:

  • When does it cross over into evangelizing?

  • When does it cease to listen…become dogmatic?

  • And when does it reflect such a deeply living personal truth that it can not, and should not, be watered down?

That said, if we’re having real conversations here, then I’d hope we’re all open to re-thinking our language, if not our beliefs, in response to feedback from others and the field. If not, then it’s not really a dialogue, but only egos bouncing off each other. Thank you, G and K, for your passionate, eloquent honesty. I believe we are here to influence each other in creative, energizing, life-affirming ways. May it be so!

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Humans have an inbuilt tendency towards dependencies of different kinds. I’m sure the same “narcistic vulnerability” could be applied to, for example, a sugar dependency, which is also rife in our modern cultures. Sugar addiction is arguably less harmful than, say, heroin addiction, although a case can be made that the long term effects can also be much more harmful than we are usually ready to admit.

I find this a very harsh judgement, Katina. I prefer a softer approach. The ability to overcome substance abuse requires viable alternatives and a supportive community. Coming down hard on “idolaters” seems unecessarily hard, and unlikely to achive the desired results. My two cents, for what they are worth.

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I do agree, Marco, despite what I started here. The problem is this…

For me, this issue cuts pretty deep. If it was just an intellectual discussion, I could have let it go. Unfortunately (or perhaps, on the contrary, fortunately!) on Infinite Conversations our discussions aren’t only intellectual, they often delve into more personal issues, and this is one area where it’s hard for me to keep quiet. I think, however, thanks in large part to Katina (@KPr2204) and her willingness to meet on some kind of middle ground, that we have aired some issues which, in the long term, deepen the discussion in interesting and fascinating ways. It is the only way I know how to do things… we have to work with our contradictions and paradoxes, even our incoherencies, where they are.

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{This discussion probably belongs in another thread like, “Octavia Butler” - but I am okay to ride the wave of intertextuality until we meet face to face for the next “Parable…” book discussion event.)

At the end of the day, I’m saying that idolatry is a form of self-worship. The example I provided of addiction only applies to the transfer of power that the addict forfeits to the drug. A relationship develops that is akin to worship. I have personal experiences with both idolatry and addiction. Consequently, I have developed an incredible intensity of love, empathy, and compassion for those still in bondage to their idols. I know what it is like.

Butler mildly addressed the topic of substance abuse in her novel. Yet, I can see how prolonged, mass enslavement to a substance can have a near religious impact upon a culture or civilization with devastating results akin to that of a “holy war”. {([We])] grant the idols of substance with power reserved for the divine and in return, the idols give us a false sense of well-being and empowerment. That is, until the idol no longer avails itself. Then withdrawal sets in as the idolater struggles to recoup his/her identity and humanity in the absence of an idol.

With the new and upcoming religion, “Earthseed”, I think that Lauren should take a different approach by encouraging the shaping of humanity rather than God. As history illustrates the futility in the attempt.

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Hi,Marco as usual I find your word doings interesting & synchronicity very compelling to move this Lover of Language in all it’s Physicality,Eros emerging Forms & Intensity a life time engagement.I am Reading, Speaking Into The Air:A History of The Idea of Communication,by John Durham Peters.Interesting he challenges how we have this view of Dialogue in a very one sided way, of the Sender( transmitting to the other with no consideration for Receiver),which as Humans we are very much created with both.He talks about contrasting two Grundbegruffe in communication theory ,dialogue & dissemination,& uses Socrates & Jesus as examples of this Taoist approach to communication(the Taoist part is my personal take).It seems we forget our fleshy intellects have a deep link to our EGO’s need to express,suppress,repress,impress,& feel depressed with OTHER(life,nature,& especially humans of a different kind).All this is to give thanks for U & EveryOne who Participate,I am Grooving with U All!P.S. My Personal thoughts about the development of the Receiver is tried to childhood,because THAT’s when we were most OPEN & without the conditioning to protect ourselves,which is below our awareness until we turn towards changing & embracing the Healing of WTF!!!

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