Cosmos Café [11/20/18] We Have Never Been Modern, We Have Always Been Integral: Amusing Musings Using "Singing"

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@johnnydavis54

I like open ended agendas shared in a coherent public we space. Sharing a meta-attention is a high level skill. That is a skill , I believe, that we can develop.

@Michael_Stumpf

I for One think-feel there is a lot of openness going on & there’s many streams interacting together with your stream;when one is in the stream of whatever stream,it seems to me it’s about swimming

Yeah, Michael, it’s about swimming…and the water may be unclear and there may be sharks out there…and you may want to get into a boat and do some fishing instead of swimming…we have lots of options…as we can choose and interpret…and MAKE A DECISION…about so many things…

@Mark_Jabbour

And what ought we/I do next? Of course, I have an opinion/theory–not of which is mainstream.

And what happened, Mark, right before you posted this video from the Joe Rogan show?

And what do you want to direct our attention to?

I find this Joe Rogan show is a mess!

I like the idea of a spot light on Graham Hancock but after viewing a few minutes of this video I felt exhausted and hopeless and ready to pull the plug. This was what I would call the opposite of a coherent ‘we’ space. I actually felt this is what I have tried my best to protect this forum from becoming. A lot of white guys interrupting each other. expressing no curiosity or concern, for the other or for learning something. I learned nothing from this display of bad communication. This is an excellent example of what happens when you get sucked into the Drama Triangle.

Can we frame a coherent conversation about Lost Civilazations and Archeology? Maybe. I would welcome that opportunity.

Maybe we could start with Plato. This is where Hancock starts. In the Timeus Plato reports on the ancient myth. It really give us insights into the Mythic/Mental Mind(s).

If anyone wants to stage a civilized discourse event, where Ancient Archeology and Remote Viewing is investigated, I would be very interested and offer support. We could also look at Graham Hancock in videos where he is more coherent, in friendly company. As his ideas are more challenging (as he has little academic support but a couple of best sellers) he is probably an interesting fellow to watch and listen to with great care and concern I see little point in going into rabbit holes without end. We could surf different streams and develop some adjacent possibilities. I like the weird and the uncanny. I also like coherence and clarity of intent.

Here is a remote viewing performance revealing hidden architecture/archeology. I find this a more coherent direction to go in than getting caught up in shouting matches. Is it possible that we could create conditions for break through rather than break down or endless rabbit holes to nowhere?

- YouTube

I appreciate, Mark, that you want to push boundaries but which boundaries and in what direction?

Just sayin’…

Who wants to start?

[Michael_Stumpf (LaughingCryingDancing)]

@johnnydavis54

Yeah, Michael, it’s about swimming…and the water may be unclear and there may be sharks out there…and you may want to get into a boat and do some fishing instead of swimming…we have lots of options…as we can choose and interpret…and MAKE A DECISION…about so many things…

YES,John!My Decision is to continue to Engage with the Dynamic Polarity of the Wierd/Uncanny & Coherence\Clarity of Intent.It seems I have a Different way of Holding the polarity;with an Open Hand,which accepts the Uncertainty of how far a Decision can take one before another Tensile point of decision.Also John not all Sharks are dangerous ,they just look so because we 're in their home.Just to be very clear with my metaphor(with a bit of muddiness)from this person’s point of limited view U either Play or U get Played & to mix metaphors there’s nothing but stages to decide to Play with/on.I love playing on this one with You & the Rest of the troupe,it stimulates the Juice of the Gods.Thank You for the Challenge,it’s strengthening muscles I needed to work with.Cheers!

[madrush (Marco V Morelli)]

I believe Hayle’s notion of “non-conscious cognizers” is reasonable, insofar as there are processes, performed by technical (or natural) “agents,” which manipulate information in ways that don’t involve conscious thought, yet act in the world (and thus could be considered networked-actors, in Latour’s sense) in a way that co-determines the experience of conscious beings such as ourselves. In that sense, we experience them, effectively, as agents.

The cognitive nonconscious is real—though I understand the semantic quibble. It just comes down to how we use the words “actor,” “agent,” “cognizer,” “subject,” “self,” etc. Word games.

I also like the idea that this nonconscious or ‘new unconscious’ is adjacent to and not necessarily (though still potentially) below or above or numinously dissociated from the conscious mind. This allows for communication, coordination, and commerce between domains.

I imagine the unthought involves all manner of non- and more-than human actors in reality—such as cosmic rays…geological forces…microbiotic processes…(epic-)genetic drift…the flux of dark energy—but these actors are not necessarily persons.

Must an agent be material to be an actor? That I don’t know, but I think there is a big difference between the concept of matter (scientifically or philosophically, as a position, entailing some form of material-ism) and the experience of materiality as embodied force. Isn’t the latter much more interesting? Doesn’t manifestation require embodied materiality? Is this what Gebser meant by the concretion of the spiritual?

I stated in our last Café that I would like to develop a working model of Cosmic time. By “working model,” I mean useful, functional, not necessarily just mental—a livable collective temporality.

We run on corrupted mental, post-industrial, hypermodern soul-killing time for the most part in the general operating system of our current civilization. How would an ecological civilization structure its relationship with time? How would we as (trans-)individuals be in cosmic time?

In a future Café, I would be very interested in talking about the relationship between money and time—and how actually would we get to a post-money society? To complete the drama triangle, I would add the phenomenon of debt—since in our current temporic regime, we experience time as a form of debt (in lieu of money, to which it is equated). They are interchangeable, ostensibly. Breaking out of this drama triangle of money, time, and debt is my own personal big research question. I suspect that developing a working model of cosmic time may hold some answers to my prayers.

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I am going to miss the next Café, and probably the one after that (11/27 and 12/4), since on Tuesday of this week I am going to be into my second day of a 5-day fast and I am not sure I will have the energy to show up for a discussion. Then this weekend I am participating in a medicine ceremony, from which I’ll want a few days for reintegration. However, it’s possible I will show up on 12/4 with some new prophecy or wild vision from the Cthulhusphere. No expectations. My focus for this week is developing a prayer to bring with me into the nether realms.

By mid week, I should be mentally clearer and not too hungry; so I will be present for these events:

• Wednesday: Writers Underground - 6 pm Mountain
• Thursday: IC Community Convo - Aurobindo Review & What Happens Next - 10 am Mountain

If anyone joins the Café this week and/or next, I will at least get the recording(s) uploaded. I would also like to propose that we take some time in the next month to think about the Café in 2019. I like where our conversations go and are going, and despite a slowdown or exhale during the holiday season, it seems we have some momentum to go with, but I do heartily agree we need to play the crow and crack the nut to really make it work.

I have some ideas in this direction, but will save them for another post, or for what will probably be the last two Cafés of the year on 12/11 and 12/18.

I would like to hit the ground running on 1/9/2019 with a minimal format that we (and others) can follow on a rhythmic basis, as well as the beginning of a ‘menu’ of topics for the coming year.

At least, that’s what I want to have happen.

Now, what wants to happen?

[johnnydavis54 (john davis)]

@achronon

Perhaps what I react to is everything the materialist, be they new, old, acknowledged or whatever, is all they leave out. If, by their own admission, their assumptions and methods can only account for 95% of the visible universe, you’d think they’d be looking for a broader foundation on which to stand, but they aren’t, and I don’t think they’re going to.

@Douggins

Is the dream process and some meditation techniques guided by non-conscious cognition? Is she stating that we as conscious agents need to/would be better off if we tune into these non-conscious cognitions to better understand ourselves?

@Mark_Jabbour

How open is this forum?

@johnnydavis54

We are in the midst of the emergence of a Transindvidual, a coherent We that comes through the ‘I’. I believe ‘we’ are making a paradox explicit.

@Michael_Stumpf

Care/Control is a Binary that needs to be accepted yet not given so much Power over Our Imagination

@madrush

Must an agent be material to be an actor?

I woke up last night from a curious dream. The next election was over. A new pattern had emerged and a sense of collective sanity was felt by many. I was looking at the dynamic from another plane of reality. Other intelligences were giving assistance. It was like a big checker board but more complex than that, more dimensions and other than human guests were interested. There was a local sense of a Congress that had become unified . Trump had been defeated and the role of presidency was left vacant. People were doing it for themselves.

And then what happens?

Who owns AI? A secret consortium of private actors are the owners of AI. How did we get here? There was a concerted effort in the 50’s to install strong control structures. Then in the 60s and 70s another trend moved towards a more open, fluid dynamic but the control structure was still in place. The free and easy form of control is Neo Liberalism. They have cancelled your future, for that future was too unpredictable. Meta- data has been gathered to keep your presences in line with maximizing profits. We all know this.

How can we break out of this? As long as our imaginations are imprisoned we wont be able to.

A strong tendency towards computational metaphors have distorted power relations. Since who ever owns the AI can impose their will on millions, we need to re-purpose the Neo liberal agenda. I don’t see armed rebellion makes sense when drones can easily blow up opposition.

I do think we need to re-think the control metaphors we have been hypnotized by. There is good reason to do so. Computational Metaphors violate Biological systems. Perturbation in biological systems enhances resilience. Randomness is intrinsic to the life sciences. Not so in the Computational Metaphor. Mathematical laws of statistics are dissociated from causes. Causal modeling and semantics are divorced. You mean nothing, you are a delusion, epiphenomenal , a by product of mechanical forces, floating like steam off of a kettle. Your mission is to accept this grim fact and do what Google tells you to do. They own the horizontal, they own the vertical and you are just a lot of noise that they can do without.

There is a glitch in this scenario. There is no such thing as unbiased intelligence. Abiotic systems are never neutral nor is AI. A general intelligence ( biotic) will be crackin’ nuts and gazing upon what it desires and come up with it’s own purposes. To biotic systems such as ourselves, we will take turns talking, tell jokes at cocktail parties, make love, run around naked though the woods, recite poetry and drink too much wine, go bungee jumping, etc. Just because it is fun.

Freedom is an unfinished project and we are okay with that. The abiotic can’t compute with all of this noise in the system. It is not neutral as it proclaims to be. Physics and Biology are not the same thing. And you cant reduce Biology to Physics. You can’t reduce Culture to Biology. We can’t evolve technology without Biology and Culture. That’s where we need to start up a new relationship to the unconscious and to each other. Sharing attention is very pragmatic. Can we go beyond Nature and Culture? A Psychic Being? Let’s figure this out!

So how do did we become Meta-Data? As long as AI is owned by the few who want to maximize profits, they will tell us that capitalism can work for everyone, creating more diversity and well being. They will seek to mitigate unfair practices but not to change the basics. This is just kicking the can down the road.

Those of us who want to resist can’t do so by just making noise. The algorithms are smarter than that. We are going to have to come up with some better metaphors, stories, slogans. We need to get smarter than the algorithms . We are only just starting to sketch out an alternative. Hence, my concern, is that we will leave out the Psychic Being when we try to develop alternatives. All quadrants, all levels, all lines, all curves, lots of voluptuous curves, all shapes and sizes. A vibrant percept/concept dynamic can be enhanced in some of us. Crayons can be used and micro-perceptual movement registered in multiple dimensions!

Calling all angels! I think it is a waste of time to talk about money without talking about angels and demons.The Wall Street Culture is driven by divination. That’s what derivatives are doing, becoming, according to Warren Buffet, financial instruments of mass destruction. Hamlet complains, The time is out of joint, O cursed spite. that ever I was born, to set it right!

And how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin? This is a very important research question. We are redefining the landscape in which human actors move.

Happy Holidays, good people, and look forward to next year.