Cosmos Café: Communicating About Communication [5/22]


(LaughingCryingDancing) #5

Hi,Marco, I listened to this conversation & was all inspired & conspired with all of you.I too have read Telling is Listening by Le Guin,she helped me not feel crazy around words,language ( whatever form),coming from someone who suffered-struggled with words & communication for through out the beginning of my life.Your Ecological model goes along with Lisbeth Lispari’s book Listening,Thinking,Being:Towards an Ethics of Attunement,she does seem to begin with sound being the Pre-cursor to symbolic langage,which makes sense to me sense I think that we heard danger coming before we saw it,which still plays into are defenses when someone speaks -acts different then our constructs.Meditation,listening to convesations like this one & others at Cosmos Cafe & road testing in my everyday life has been my Ecology of Practice,Much Gratitude,LaughingBaldOne

(Mark Jabbour) #6

Just looking at the snapshot of us/we communicating, we are all smiling. Just saying … . (who chooses the snapshot?)

(Marco V Morelli) #7

Hey Michael, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Honestly, I felt kind of jumbled yesterday…and was intuiting (without being able to articulate) a deeper meaning to the phenomenon we were ostensibly discussing, “communication.” Maybe I was stumbling on the ‘eventuality’ of it, by which I mean the fact that it happens—or doesn’t; and how do we know?—and what is it that happens when it happens?

Yet communication is always happening, on every level of our being, despite ourselves. This is the ecological dimension. I’m also considering how communication is a force in the world. It literally forces us to do things, and we can use it with forceful intent. But there is also a kind of communication (at least theoretically, according philosophers like Jurgen Habermas) that lets reasonable (inter)-subjects achieve mutual understanding. And mystically, it does feel like certain experiences of ‘truth,’ beauty’, and ‘love’ highlight the possibilities of communication as communion.

Then for me the question is, how do you do non-violent communication that isn’t boring, but is even more forceful than the meta-message of the cybernetic singularity, because unlike the machine, it re-creates essential life? And what is that life? And how do we communicate it?

This kind of stuff is hard to talk about. Thanks for tuning in!

That was the Google AI’s doing!

(LaughingCryingDancing) #8

Marco a follow up,I tune in because of the kinship I feel with your Deep Desire & the Others to Grow from within toward an openness-edness that Frees this speck of dirt.As Ed pointed to if it’s all about just little old me,the Image I get Golem.I do agree that communication as I humbly practice is to Be Communion with the Great Mystery,as I Play in the Realms Of Art,& the Everyday Life of Politics(Come Together-Let It BE)Peace Be Upon U & Yours,Michael

(LaughingCryingDancing) #9

Hi,Marco I was just listening to a song by my favorite song writer & singer Van Morrison Checkin It Out,written in the latter 70’s early 80"s,anyway it activated a feeling tone of your Poetic Imagination with Cosmos Cafe’ & your expression on Communicating About Communication.Peace my Friend,Michael

(Marco V Morelli) #10

Is this the song, Michael?

Nice lyrics too...

We’ve got to put our heads together
I’m sure that we can work it out
I’m weighin’ up the situation
And checkin’ it out
Takin’ it further
Takin’ it further
Checkin’ it out

This is a workin’ situation
I’m tellin’ you without a doubt
We’ve gotta pull it all in tight, baby
Checkin’ it out
Takin’ it further
Takin’ it further
Checkin’ it out

And all the obstacles along the way
Sometimes may feel so tremendous
There are guides and spirits all along the way
Who will befriend us

Let’s talk it out across the table
Make sure that we leave nothin’ out
Get into it like a meditation
Start checkin’ it out
Takin’ it further
Takin’ it further
Checkin’ it out

And all the obstacles along the way
Might be tremendous
There are guides and spirits all along the way
Who will befriend us

Let’s talk it out across the table
Make sure that we leave nothin’ out
Get into it love meditation
Start checkin’ it out
Takin’ it further
Takin’ it further
Checkin’ it out

Checkin’ it out, now baby
Checkin’ it out checkin’ it out
You meditate, you meditate
You meditate
And you come back
You come back

Thanks for checkin’ out the Café!

(LaughingCryingDancing) #11

Marco this is it,it’s my go to reminder of my Love & Struggle with this human life :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Mark Jabbour) #12

I’m definitely conflicted about AI - “they” have a scariness to “them.” Is “it” the new “wolf in sheep’s clothing”? (keeping with the “grimness” of the fairytale land that @achronon inhabits, which I’ll write/communicate in more depth below.)

(Mark Jabbour) #13

So, one thing led to another (i’ll be brief) and I found myself ‘hugging’ 4,000 yr. old Bristlecone pines (in my former backyard) because I could (free will?), and I uncovered Bruno Bettelheim’s The Uses of Enchantment @achronon, and so I wonder: have you taken the Marchenstrasse? [A 400 mile road that follows the brother Grimm’s Nursery and Household Tales (1812); which, apparently borrowed stories from 10th Century India and Persia.] Anyway, Bettelheim applied Freudian psychoanalysis to the tales, “The fairy tale takes these existential anxieties and dilemmas very seriously and addresses itself directly to them: the need to be loved and the fear that one is thought worthless; and the fear of death.” So there! Of course, they had to be simplified, i.e, shortened and given a happy ending.
And so … I’ve been thinking … What are the ways of knowing? As Ed suspects, are we not just circling back to the beginning, always? Unless @mindful_ai becomes King?
me in the old growth forest

(Mark Jabbour) #14

Brief follow up: The fairy tales were LIES! so as to allow the children to carry on - struggle through the suffering.

(Ed Mahood) #15

No, they are pious and necessary fictions.

More tomorrow (if I’m lucky) … the day is coming to a close here.

And then again … I was just informed that my usual Saturday-night mindlessness has been superseded by football (soccer for you uninitiated), so I’ve got a few more minutes than I would have had otherwise.

Uno momento, por favor.

(Ed Mahood) #16

No, I’ve never driven the Märchenstraße … I live – more or less – about halfway between Steinau (where he Grimm brothers are from and did a lot of their work) and Kassel (something like the central point along route). If you drive east from where I live, say, about 5 miles, you can see the 7 Dwarves (a string of basalt cupolas spread across the plain over toward the Wartburg where Luther translated the Bible into German.

Bettleheim’s book is a must read for any parent, as far as I’m concerned. I also highly recommend Erich Fromm’s The Forgotten Language and von Franz’ The Interpretation of Fairy Tales. William Irwin Thompson did a brilliant interpretation of the fairy tale Rapunzel (but I can’t find the reference right now). And if you’ve never read Robert Bly’s Iron John (mandatory reading for my sons-in-law), you don’t know what you’re missing. Not to forget, de Santillana & Dechend’s Hamlet’s Mill is far too often ignored, and Grave’s White Godess is too easily dismissed. And think what one will of Jordan Peterson, I don’t know any contemporary who has uncovered the truth value of myth more than him (cf. his Maps of Meaning).

It’s not about struggling through the suffering to carry on, rather it’s about gaining insight to be able to deal with the inevitable suffering that will come again.

What I learned from Gebser (not that you need read him, but you might just get into him) is that myths (and fairy tales are often condensed, compressed, if not distilled, versions of mythical narratives … as lots gets lost when it is transmitted orally from one culture to the next) are true. It’s not that somewhat childish-minded, not as sophisticatedly developed, sometimes even perceived as primitive peoples made up stories to assuage their fears, rather they spoke their truths in symbolic language that only we moderns, allegedly educated and “enlightened” moderns, are dumb enough to think are literal expressions of something.

Yes, the Enlightenment had as some of its declared goals demythologization and the final annihilation of superstition, but they couldn’t have failed more miserably. Instead, we replaced what was there with cheap, tawdry, sometimes even false imitations that were in turn taken as the non plus ultra of insight … a lot like, as Bettleheim pointed out, the French tried to “sanitize” the Grimm versions of the tales (which are full of blood and death – natural parts of the suffering that it is to be human), but also without real success. We moderns drove out the Devil with Beelzebub and wonder why things are as screwed up as ever.

One of the reasons that we still recount the story of Osiris-Isis-and-Horus, that we find the Gilgamesh Epic still captivating, that Odin’s sacrifice of his eye moves us, and that the Spirit of G-d moving upon the face of the deep holds us in awe is not that they are lies, but because they are all true. How, to what degree, in which manner … the answers to those questions are challenges to us, and for the most part, most folks today are not up to the challenge at all, and so they do what science, for example, does with anomalies it doesn’t want to deal with: they ignore them.

Yes and know. We are not circling as far as I can tell: we’re spiraling. When we return to our “starting point” if you will, we are different, having been changed by the experience of our journey. For some, the will be at a “higher” level of some sort (to merely use a terribly distasteful metaphor as far as I’m concerned), others will be at a “lower” level. If we just return, not change takes place and we neither know that we were gone, nor does it matter. And so round and round and round we go … where we end up, nobody knows.

Keep the faith, and keep to the high ground out there.

(Mark Jabbour) #17

Ha? necessary and sufficient? probably true. We’ll see (not you and me). Go team! Me? a Yankee fan since forever, and they’re on the Tele tonight. Take the road trip!

(Mark Jabbour) #18

Hmmm, I’ve swallows here (birds), nesting in vent pipes, multiplying, migrating to new territory, adapting, as well as “prairie dogs”. Me thinks we (humans) will poison them, eventually. And then make up some story to tell the children.

(Ed Mahood) #19

As I have no emotional (or other) investment in FC Liverpool or Real Madrid, I can’t bring myself to get excited about them chasing a ball around for an hour-and-a-half, whereby, I am more than certain that for those aesthetically disposed there will be moments of breath-taking beauty and profound skill. It just don’t make me no nevermind, as we said where I grew up. So, I’ll go out on the back deck and watch the light fade this evening. I can watch the greens of the wooded hillsides seque to black and know that at least the trees are hooked up. All is well in the forest this evening.

(Mark Jabbour) #20

True that. (But watch out for witches, gnomes, gargoyles, and other evil doers.) Love Germany! It was re-created here, in places (parts of Evergreen, Colorado), and maybe also in the psyche of some. Looking forward to the next @ccafe, as well as further comments.

(Mark Jabbour) #21

Now that’s some good insight, and yet, the myth and fairy tale persist. I.e. “hope and change”, revolution, and/or “integral”, "planetary consciousness’ etc. and so on. … politics. Get yourself elected …

(Mark Jabbour) #22

Maybe next time we intro with my favorite Van Morison song, I’ll be your lover, too Join us.

(LaughingCryingDancing) #23

So Mark ;I’ll be a Dweller on the Threshold,Cleaning Windows, waiting for the next round of “Shooting the Breeze”,that Cosmos Cafe’ is more comfortable-challenging at this time.At present I am in a scouting of observing & listening mode with some of the very interesting & close to my Heart Alive Ideas.Warm Love,Michael

(Mark Jabbour) #24

Maybe I’m alone as spots fan, and former athlete, but I’ll take a shot … Last night’s Game One of the NBA finals (basketball) was amazing! so much regarding “communication” and “lying”, and confabulation. As the game came to its finish, player A made a mental error that cost his team victory (which would have been HUGE b/c they were not given any chance to win). Afterwards, talking to the media, player A lied, flat-out, and everyone knew it b/c you could read his lips when he made the error. (Mental errors in sports are almost unforgivable. It’s “life or death” after all.) Player B, on the same underdog team, attempting to be known as the GOAT (greatest of all time) nearly cried. But afterwards, in his talking with the media, took the “high-road” and didn’t criticize player A. Player A engaged in confabulation , or, retold the story of the ending so as to “save face” w/r/t his mental error. But, that’s a big no-no in team sports - you’ve got to “own up” (take responsibility) for your actions, or your teammates won’t respect you. Player B covered for player A, with a lie, too.
What i’m getting at is: athletic competition at the highest level is great , and it reflects (and is model for) the human condition like nothing else.
I can’t wait to see how this plays out.

Mindful Sex and Human Development [CCafe 7/3]