Postformal Pedagogies and Complex Futures [CCafe 10/30]

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Darnitall! This is right up my alley! Of course, I have to work on that date and time. What is the duration of the ZoomCast? Is it 2 hours, as usual. And will there be future scheduled Zoom meetings to develop the discussion?

Next time, is it possible to put out a “Call for Collaborative Scheduling” of these events? That way, we could (at least) try to coalesce availability of interested participants.

Sounds very interesting. Will participate! :slight_smile:

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The Cosmos Cafe is currently the only weekly Zoom discussion in which we have a set time to discuss our various interests. I expect that the discussion on Tuesday will trickle into the other conversations shared on the site. The time set for the Cafes (12-2 MDT) was a previous decision by a few individuals who could attend at this time. If you wish to put out a collaborative scheduling call to discuss a specific topic, we can attempt to arrange for this (much in the same manner as the recent doubling of the Aurobindo sessions to account for planetery accomodations). I sense that many of us are frequently biting beyond our ability to chew, but alternate sessions are always a possibility.

I have a personal interest in exploring alternate education methods. My sons are pre-school age. I personally have no direct grudge against formal education but do take note frequently of its limits, its boxes and walls; its lackluster performance when called on to change. A well-seasoned education, a natural education flowing freely from the calls of the wild mind, body and soul, a continual education (into adulthood, outside of the classroom, beyond the program) speaks of a primal truth. There must be a spreading of awareness of the various pedagogical methods before any true change can occur. My sons are entering into a steamroller of a life. They will meet eye-to-eye with a demanding world, as we are all experiencing. The projects and discussions here are a beacon of hope for future education. I will be taking what I learn here into their world.

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"If you wish to put out a collaborative scheduling call to discuss a specific topic, we can attempt to arrange for this (much in the same manner as the recent doubling of the Aurobindo sessions to account for planetery accomodations). " (Douggins)

YES! I would like to put out a “collaborative scheduling” call to include an additional Cafe’ time for this topic, in order to expand the opportunity for participation to Cosmos members that are deeply vested in this particular topic. Could we add another weekly Cafe’ Day and Time, such as Thursdays (same time, even or later than 12pm - 2pm MT)?

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I’m not going to make it. I’m on deadline–to get my book ready for publication by tomorrow. Nothing for me save the coffee machine. No shave, no shower not even whiskey or beer.
Have fun!

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I will bring this up during the call to see what others have in mind. @care_save and @DurwinFoster have expressed interest and may wish to participate in a tandem discussion. I have realized we have a hefty load of educators, past and present (…and future educators?), on the site (@MarcoMasi, @Mark_Jabbour, @hfester among the many others I am neglecting to name) who would be interested in a separate discussion.


In light of the heavy load above and looking towards our “futures studies” today, I wish to state again that no reading is required.

These brief videos provide an overview of…
…what is meant by complex futures (Gidley wrote “The Future” topic for Oxford’s Very Short Introduction series):

…and three domains of Conscious Evolution (Adult Developmental Psychology Research, Cultural Evolution Research and Futures of the Body):


Godspeed on your book Mark!

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I am definitely interested in this topic and her work, but I may have to catch the replay based on my workload today. Either way, thanks for exploring this. I invited her to the Gebser conference this year. :slight_smile:

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I am going to miss the call today, too, although I am very interested in this topic. I have had a couple very bad weeks of computer issues, which has set me sorely behind on work and other tasks, including some technical upgrades for Cosmos which should make it easier for members to schedule and host additional sessions, as Katina is requesting. I am going to do my best to catch up today. I hope with those present, you have a great call! Thanks, @Douggins, for putting this event together.

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But if you want to know my vote for readings, I’m interested in these:

An Other View of Integral Futures: De/reconstructing the IF Brand

Global Knowledge Futures: Articulating the Emergence of a New Meta-level Field

Evolution of Education: From Weak Signals to Rich Imaginaries of Educational Futures

This is one I love–models a great method that has been influential for me… found it first in the Gunnlaugson and Esbjorn-Hagens volume on higher ed:
Evolving higher education integrally: Delicate mandalic theorising

Evolving Education: A Postformal-Integral-Planetary Gaze at the Evolution of Consciousness and the Educational Imperatives

Educational Imperatives of the Evolution of Consciousness: The Integral Visions of Rudolf Steiner and Ken Wilber

Would be nice to read one that is an overview of her book (which is super expensive, but I would love a copy nonetheless). I think her thesis parallels that book–from some research I did awhile back. And, that appears in the list here. I am slightly less interested in her futurist work–moreso in the process and postformal education contents. That said, I really enjoyed scrolling backwards through her work over time and seeing the evolution of how she’s expressed her “question.”

And, my preferences aside, I’ll read whichever Gidley piece gets chosen!

At some point: let’s do a cafe on Jorge Ferrar’s (formerly a CIIS professor) participatory spirituality book. There are parallels and common references with Gidley, and I have some of the chapters from his recent and expensive book (now less expensive in paperback form) with permission from him to share them in limited circulation for a book group. → https://techgnosis.com/cocreating-spiritual-worlds/ I asked him to share the more theoretical chapters (instead of the practice oriented ones for pscyhotherapy), so that’s what I could share.

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Douggins,

Your Zoom Cafe’ on Postformal Pedagogies was very well presented, as you inspired such passionate and relevant discourse among friends, Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

I do believe that your bringing attention this issue via the IC platform may have the potential to start a movement towards, not merely “changing the system”, but rather, developing a brand new one. This conversation MUST continue, as we haven’t even scratched the surface.

I was so moved and energized by the insights of Ed, MarcoM, JohnnyD, and your references to Gidley’s book, as well as, your own personal epiphany regarding the way you and yours cultivate education as a perpetual form of communication in the familial domain. Your account reminded me of my constant declaration as an educator that teaching is a mutually beneficial endeavor, as my pupils often taught me as much as I did them.

We definitely have more to talk into action in the upcoming weeks as this discussion continues.

You ROCK, Bro! See ya’ soon.

Love Ya’ to Life!

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Great idea. I am reading with great pleasure A Participatory Turn . A book length text doesn’t work well on the Cafe as it is a weekly forum. It’s good for rehearsals and reports. Could you find an article or essay of his and lead a discussion? Below is a recent video of Jorge in action. ( I think Jeffrey Mishlove, the interviewer, talks too much)

Also, I mentioned Quantum Poetics in the conversation today. There is an overlap in Gidley and your description of Cook-Greuter’s 4th person, an overlap that I would love to develop further. Perhaps we can lay down another grove, as we explore the expressive power of Voice? I believe many possibilities are unfolding.

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And I was moved by yours, Katina. A lovely jazz quartet, doing riffs, solos, feeling for the off beats. Let’s keep this ball bouncing.

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In that case, I wanna get credit for the “scatting”! Cuz’, in your own immortal words, “It don’t mean a thang, if it ain’t got that SCHWANG!!!”

Doo - Wop - Doo - Wop - Doo - Wop…

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Yes, @johnnydavis54, to that which is unfolding! Ecstatic, isn’t it? I was inspired by Gidley’s “delicate mandalic theorizing” as I worked with Cook-Greuter on the article linked below (perhaps a bit dense and representative of my learning process more than my getting-it process). It’s from a few years ago and was supposed to be published in a book edited by Gary Hampson (Gidley’s student). My Cook-Greuter here is very rudimentary, and I would suggest (to any intrepid readers) skipping over the history of academic professionalism section unless that topic seems interesting. But, I so look forward to hearing from you what the connections you see are.

Fester_Epistemic Map Making.pdf (584.5 KB)

And, since I have separate chapter files from Jorge (and asked him for article, but wasn’t sent any), how about we just read the introductory chapter for one of the calls? (Or, here’s his academia.edu page with a list of appealing titles: Jorge Ferrer | California Institute of Integral Studies - Academia.edu, like the "Introduction to Participatory Spirituality one.) The intro could be the equivalent of an article. It may launch some people on the journey of reading the whole book, and it also will be a relatively quick read that could lend itself to a type of closure for those who don’t want to keep going with it. He’s another weaver of the multiple integrals into one meaningful cloth.

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I look forward to reading your essay. Maybe we can weave together your essay with Jorge’s intro to that book. In today’s conversation, we review Gidley’s spin on the different Integral thinkers and come up with some of our own spin. I look forward to your response. I am interested in deep dives into the subtle and then giving a voice to such experience. Finding a worldly context for sharing subtle field effects is probably not going to happen unless we want that to happen.

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Hi,all just finished watching your very engaging transfusion of ideas ; its been said of poets of old,“ideas live in the blood” ,which for this wandering poet of the 21st century is so very true,I find the Brain needs to bend -bow below the Heart so as to be infuse some oxygenated blood flow so as to emanate as John expresses & draw out as Ed expresses.I enjoyed the Meal being shared.Let’s continue with the challenging ideas of What is the new Physicality for Humans!Peace & Care With U & Yours,Michael

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Video and audio now posted above. I just want to say, I enjoyed this talk and the passion and insights everyone brought to the conversation. As I’ve mentioned before, my wife and I are homeschooling our daughters—for many of the reasons you discuss. In a nutshell we came to believe that the factory-model, high-stakes testing regime in contemporary schooling really wouldn’t be preparing them for the future we desire, and that if we want to actually give them the breathing room to learn, grow, and discover their true gifts, it would be best to give them a lot more experience outside of the classroom and especially to let the develop their minds and souls in their/our own time. Most of all, I didn’t want school to systematically destroy their inherent love of learning, or for the toxic social environments (of degraded digital so-called culture) to desensitize their souls. They still socialize and have friends and follow a curriculum and even take some tests (our older one)—it’s just happening in our own timeframe.

Of course there are challenges, and not everyone’s lifestyle (both Kayla and I work from home) would allow for this kind of arrangement. But the tradeoffs so far I’d say are really worth it. Our girls, I daresay, are actually happy…not addicted to tech…not caught up in the latest consumer fetishes. They love reading. They are curious about the world. They get enough sleep (which I never did when I was in school). And as young family, we still share a daily life. We are not separated and kept apart from each other all day almost every day. This might be one of the most important aspects of homeschooling for us—that we get to enjoy our lives together during this most precious time.

Lastly, I thought I’d report that while I was processing the recordings for this talk, I learned that one of the champions of homeschooling and self-directed education in the US, John Taylor Gotto, just passed away. Here is a clip you may enjoy, in which Gotto recounts the political thinking underlying the factory model, which in his view is much more about social control than it is about the development of the individual or group soul.

Some more choice Gotto quotes:

“School is a twelve-year jail sentence where bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned. I teach school and win awards doing it. I should know.”

“It is absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to sit in confinement with people of exactly the same age and social class. That system effectively cuts you off from the immense diversity of life and the synergy of variety; indeed, it cuts you off from your own past and future, sealing you in a continuous present much the same way television does. It is absurd and anti-life to move from cell to cell at the sound of a gong for every day of your natural youth in an institution that allows you no privacy and even follows you into the sanctuary of your home, demanding that you do its “homework.” “How will they learn to read?” you ask, and my answer is “Remember the lessons of Massachusetts.” When children are given whole lives instead of age-graded ones in cellblocks they learn to read, write, and do arithmetic with ease, if those things make sense in the kind of life that unfolds around them.”

“Independent study, community service, adventures and experience, large doses of privacy and solitude, a thousand different apprenticeships—the one-day variety or longer—these are all powerful, cheap, and effective ways to start a real reform of schooling. But no large-scale reform is ever going to work to repair our damaged children and our damaged society until we force open the idea of “school” to include family as the main engine of education. If we use schooling to break children away from parents—and make no mistake, that has been the central function of schools since John Cotton announced it as the purpose of the Bay Colony schools in 1650 and Horace Mann announced it as the purpose of Massachusetts schools in 1850—we’re going to continue to have the horror show we have right now.”

“Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die.”

I look forward to the follow-up conversations on this topic, as it seems to be deep interest to many involved here. Thanks, @Douggins, for putting this talk together!

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Marco, I’m sure you made the right choice!

As to home- and unschooling, Peter Gray and his Alliance for Self-Directed Learning may be also an inspiring source to ponder on.
https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/mcas/departments/psychology/people/faculty-directory/peter-gray.html

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Free Progress Education + Self-Directed Education

I believe I have identified the path to which my children’s education will follow.

The well-grooved path of the current educational model matches the current infrastructure that is American society at large: artificial pavements that provide pre-determined path-seeking at ever increasing speeds in directions already known. The potholes are repaved with cheap material so as to look fresh and smooth to glazed-over, paved-over eyes, but the underlying issue remains embedded in false hopes and beliefs. It is only a matter of time before the surface cracks again. The glazed-over, paved-over eyes have seen this trick before and many have been eying alternatives, variant pathways that take us to destinations these paved pathways cannot reach.

I saw today a datamap of a topological territory. It represents “max travel distance per X hours in a mountainous area” The data points (or data lumps) progress slowly where there were more hills to ascend and valleys to descend. Where there is a river bed or flat ground, the progress was quicker. When I observed the map as it unfolded in time, I was made aware that each data line progressed at their own rate, and even more to the point, each data line had no specific destination in mind. The path was chosen and the ground was covered. I would like to think of self-directed education as a similar model, each individual branching out on its own path, the journey as the mission in mind, not a specific end point.

If we bring this back to reality, with each individual’s learning curve in mind, one could easily see this as a mess, as a free for all rather than a free progress. Where is the structure? What is the point of “random” points going willy-nilly as they please? I feel this is where, in our real life, without the metaphorical data points, we can include the interpersonal. The parents, the teachers, the comrades, the co-workers, the mentors and the family units. These groupings introduce the influence, the meaning in the path. The child (as a data point and a real individual) will constantly observe (Michael’s note) the groupings, learn from observation, seek advice, ask for help, ….a healthy adult will also seek out others for observation and advice, continuing education.


I frequently state that this site is a placeholder for my education. What I have listed above can be applied to my journey here. I play hooky from work so I can sneak behind the school and smoke the cigarettes of life, sneak a drag of reality, speak easy with undercover agents, conspire on how to overthrow the system and create a beautiful anarchic wonderland in our minds…and even more so, in the true world. The things that I read and hear from you I am living. The smokes you bring are of the finest quality. Yes, I will still “smoke” in secret…I haven’t accumulated enough power and influence to smoke these great ideas in public, to fend off the blowback of blowing my cover, to charm the pants off those seeking to put me back in class or in detention.

I have been reading your book @MarcoMasi (I feel it to be of great importance to get to know the ones I love and admire, through their writing…so I couldn’t resist purchasing your book!) and am learning. I am learning again that education, real education does not have to be a clandestine endeavor.

My son, since the age of two (now approaching 5 and then Kindergarten next autumn), has stated at times, matter-of-factly, that he does not want to go to school. He also states that he is a teacher, not a student. We have tried to explain how learning works, how teachers are there to help the learning process, how school will be a fun place to explore friends and new projects. I am having doubts on occasion that our words are real. The teachers and schools mean well and may be excellent schools, but is this the best we can offer as parents?

When he states that he is a teacher, I believe him…teaching Miles is next to impossible. Your opening quote, Marco, from Galileo “you cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself” approaches a deeper truth now that I have experienced teaching first hand. He will learn on his own damn time. He is doing things his way which is the right way, goddammit! I believe him. He has essentially self-taught through self-directive efforts since he could make his own choices. He learned to read soon after his fourth birthday, starting with maybe 50-75 words in his vocabulary. Now he reads books 50-75 pages…a 2nd or 3rd-grade level. His memory and comprehension are next to flawless. Of course, he is being taught through undercover parental methods and tricks (I’m beginning to become an expert in this secret agent stuff)…his parents are the right balance of direction and allowing self-direction. We plant seeds around the home (no TV, books falling off the shelves, a large backyard) and in the community (the Friends community reflects our values and provides social outlets, the Filipino friends and family are a direct antidote to the American individualism and isolationism). I will continue to state that I know my children will be receiving a full-bodied education wherever they may be. My sons are highly resilient. I imagine that my children will go through the public education system as @achronon has described his children experienced it…constant questions, bucking the system respectfully, etc. I do hope that they receive detention at some point for their stubbornness and refusal to give into the system.

I wish to close with a quick thank you for everyone’s efforts to articulate what education means. it is really a beautiful thing to discover the like-minded, open-minded along with the open-hearted and all the rest.

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