you were the only one yesterday, who felt the need to interrupt Terri O’Fallon, btw. Wilber’s an army brat too, btw. You might have a good conversation
First of all, I would like to thank all of you who weighed in on this. I had started out thinking that I was the only one who had uncertainties about the subject, and I am relieved to find that I am not alone.
The quintessence of what I’ve read (and you can correct me if I’m wrong) is that the whole subject is in flux (and I must add, much more flux in the, say, roughly, Anglo-American world than here on the Continent, for example), so I, like everyone, else will have to sort it out on my own, to the degree it is necessary for the environment in which I find myself. I’m fine with that.
Nevertheless, I must admit, I’ve learned a lot.
I would have appreciated it if you would have stopped right there, rather than continuing with your gender essentialism, Johnny.
Durwin with due respect to your comment in regards to Johnny’s observation,I find it spot on,speaking as a heterosexual male interacting with the groups he speaks about in his experience.I have dealt with these conditions in the sense of enlarging my personal experience & found the tension of difference to cut both ways.Having a Daughter which finally expressed her having a fluid sexual identity ,was a precious moment,she has not been able share this with her mother( we’re divorced) .This is to say " a Good Wrestling Tango" involves a willingness to engage the dance for learning,fun & dare I love of the DANCE?
that’s fine, Michael. I was stating my opinion, and stand by it. Glad to hear about a positive outworking with your daughter
I have been one of the damned too. Thus my invitation in pm to connect. I am learning not to avoid conflict. I notice that you elevate most things I say into the realm of “high conflict”, which in my view, is a projection on your part. Yes, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I can resonate with that.
well, it’s true there is a kind of audit trail
I was going to say, before @DurwinFoster’s comment turned the dialogue into a different direction, that I consider these remarks, @johnnydavis54, to be among the most important I have seen in a long time concerning this issue. I agree that the idea of masculinity is changing, and for once in a good direction. On re-reading Durwin’s message and Johnny’s original text, I noticed that you (@johnnydavis54) did “project” a few ideas about the states of mind of straight men that were more caricature than real, but we are among friends here, and I let it slide. I wouldn’t have labelled it “gender essentialism” - in fact, I try to avoid labels altogether, especially when talking about friends (or anyone I know). Even if my inferences are wrong, it is all too easy to slide down the slippery slope into some form of “flaming” in a forum - we need to be careful what we say and how we say it, IMHO.
Both straight and gay dads perfectly fine raising girls!
I just missed my calling to be a damn gifted defense attorney for my brothers-in-arms. But , its never too late to go to law school. I don’t know how you guys can contain your frustration over the absurdity of this pseudo-sexual hell fury revolution of the “scorned woman”?
What are we smoking, women? This is the perfect kind of setting for a science fictionalized , infertility curse in divine wrathful response to this sociological nightmare developing between the sexes.
And I am not at all speaking to the true victims , but what about giving equal attention to the rise in the unreported rapes and sexual assaults on men initiated by women?!? Esp. since the female population has catapulted way beyond that of males. There is a man shortage, just as the prophet Isaiah predicted:
“And in that day seven women will put their hands on one man, saying, There will be no need for you to give us food or clothing, only let us go under your name, so that our shame may be taken away.” (Isaiah 4:1).
What about the poor men having their seed ripped out of them by desperately willing females desiring only to create offspring for their sole possession and rearing? Men are sexaully attacked by jezebels in waiting just as frequently as the “weaker sex”.
Watch out, men - your emasculation is nigh!
Okay…I don’t know yet how to respond to you Katina @KPr2204, but below is something I did not post 3 months ago when others were posting above. It may speak a bit to what you are getting at though from a male perspective. Read at risk of not understanding my ranting and raving.
I think I refrained from posting as I felt I might have offended someone. I was also playing around with the idea that the next demand for rights will be to go beyond gender…to speak for the rights of those born into a body but who identify as bodiless. @johnnydavis54 might say that I am channeling my inner (Alexander) Pope, though I never have any intention at degrading others or mocking their POV. Again, read at own risk…
phhheewww…things are (were) getting heated in here. Looks like you need a physically hetero-male who sees himself as (or who desires to eventually live as) a bodyless, sexually neutral individual to intervene…where are my rights g-dammit?! When do I get to augment myself into Light? When will my Immortality and Freedom be recognized…when will I be liberated from this stupid vessel of a body? Before I turn this into a South Park-like parody and offend anyone (which is NOT my intention, I wish to present a story that I had hoped to present on this thread back in November (around the time that MeToo cases started to arise) but resisted. See also:
I occasionally attract men. I often would go to lakeside park spots to read and/or smoke marijuana when in high school and early college. Besides hotspots for potheads and loners, parks seem to be frequented by gay men, previously (and possibly) one of the few safe daytime spots to search for similar gay-kin. I was searching for quiet and nature. Four times I was asked to come home with males. They would start the conversation with a typical friendly “nice weather” or “great day, right?” …my typical response…then I would receive the proposal. I did not mind and politely declined. My “MeToo” moment comes during a time at the YMCA. I had become decent friends with a professor at a local university and would chat while swimming or cycling. We were on the same schedule and would often retire to the showers and the steam room around the same time. I have always been one to remain physically hidden and always cover up with a towel. Some men are fine with walking around with only body in tow, and that is fine with me, but I cover up since I know the territory and dont wish to give wrong impressions. We happened to be talking alone in the steam room one day and out of the blue he becomes clearly aroused…then proceeds to approach me, on the verge of caressing me. I say no thanks, you know I’m married. He reminds me that he is too and I tell him to sit down, on the other bench area. Quite shaken at this unexpected advancement, I act like nothing had just happened and tell him goodbye. We did not talk after that.
I spent weeks thinking about the situation. Did I lead him on? No, this was an older male, professor. I saw the relationship as a friendly teacher/student style relationship. We hardly shared a deep, intimate conversation. I thought further about the situation. Should I report this? It was the YMCA and it was in a steam room… what can one expect?! Yet he is a professor and, does he prey upon his students? Likely not, as, again, this was a YMCA moment, in a setting, like the park, that promotes the subtle communications between “seekers” …I persuaded myself that, though I had a paid membership, I understand and respect the setting. There might be contradictions running through your mind now: “but you were violated, Doug” “not reporting this can lead to more issues” …I see, though, a gay man, a black man, doubly oppressed by society, past and present, that had a momentary lapse of reason. I would have preferred a “would you like to come home with me” and my “no thanks” over the “prick-thinking” that was going on in his head and body at the time.
Why do I bring this up now? Maybe because I am interested in the positive movements, movements that start small but snowball into greatness, influencing others towards a better state. The Sexual harassment/ MeToo movement arrived as definitely positive for those able to free themselves from sexual harassment, yet it is a negative trend, once that latches onto the male and leeches his life, what @DurwinFoster called a movement “without an ethics of inclusion – to punish men (usually) without due process.” Human relations are much more complicated than simple victim vs perpetrator.
The males in our society, or the ‘pathetic’ males perhaps, have a misunderstanding of sexuality. And, mostly so in American society. These individuals are on moral code level of 2 or less. Or express the level 2 more frequently than we would hope.
This male drive towards power is dominant in all of our relationships. The pathetic male, whether in a position of power or powerless, will misuse their power, will aim to achieve the dominant male power over another even in a time when this power is unnecessary. The sexual harassment issues are stemming from the misuse of testosterone. We are heading in the direction of a misuse of thought. I can imagine a teenage boy staring at a girl. The girl could potentially report the boy for eye-rape and the boy would be shunned, possibly suspended for the trauma caused by this act of gaze. In reality, he was only attempting to keep his testosterone at bay, he was wanting to make the situation better for communication, bypassing the sexual thoughts that appear in his head. Or maybe he was talking with the girl and glanced at the wrong spot a few times. This is another potential situation.
All males have this drive. Some have formed stronger fantasies, less realistic applications of the sexual drive. Some can channel out of the drive and use it for creativity.
End of previous post…any thoughts?
What a beautiful person you are, Douggins for sharing that with me!
Wow! Phew! So much food for thought!
Firstly, I love how you opened with the travailing of a pure Spirit trapped in this protein-based earth suit riddled with urges, drives and hormonal impulses as its only means for expressing the innate human desire for “more life”! And why is the flesh the most available source for accessing this “feeling of life” via the procreative act, and further driven by the flesh’s perpetual decomposition. In the Kingdom, there’s got to be a better way to “get life” and keep it without risking the violation of another’s body.
I understand that God needs our bodies to achieve His spiritual ends - and human sexuality is nothing without “otherness” - but, honestly, I get more sexual satisfaction in connecting with “others” in non-carnal ways, than I do during the actual “act of sex” with a body that void of or insufficient in spirit. And that is how most people treat sex today. Purely carnal nothing spiritual. And I’ve had many spiritual encounters with folks (regardless of gender) which had the same effect or better than sexual intercourse. When you can connect with “others” in the deepest way possible without ever even having to physically “touch” them, then…Whoo! THAT is what I consider orgasmic and simultaneously procreative.
As a hetero-celibate female for the past ten years (Ssshhh!), whom also is fully aware and appreciative of the joy of sex (esp. marital sex), I don’t practice it outside of a martial covenant because according to my Spirit, intercourse is irrelevant outside of a marital covenant.
Yet, during this time and with much ongoing spiritual maturing, I enjoy and practice spiritual intercourse ALL the time (or at least every opportunity I get) by connecting truth with others. I use words, mannerisms, facial expressions, ideas, a smile or any touchless method to reach inside of people and embark upon an enrapturing discovery of who they really are, so that I can affirm their identity and love them to LIFE (not Death)! That is my preferred way of touching others, in a way that preserves our spiritual purity.
I think that it is an amazing gift to that you possess in your androgynous type of beauty which attracts both sexes. It is a dangerous type of power though, and you seem to wield it with such grace, awareness and purity. It is a rare virtue to resist the temptation to use your androgynous beauty to fulfill the hedonistic ends of your own eros nature and that of others. That’s amazing and impressive and one of the many things I absolutely love about you, Douggins!!! You are a glorious man who protects it with restraint. Like a warrior pulling back his archer’s bow, yet with the arrow sealed to his side.
I feel that women have also misused their estrogen and pheremones (sp) to spellbound men into very tight corners. There are two sides to such an encounter which mutually invades the proximity and space of sexual attraction. And you exhibited this awareness when clothed yourself in the presence of other men naked in their glory with testosterone sweating thru their steam-soaked towels and dripping from their eyelids. What a daily gauntlet of sexual space invasion - and all I want to do is get my workout on and my endorphins running oxygenated joy through my cells - and Ahhh! a nice final sigh of relief as the steam rises from the back of neck and - Ahhh! Whoooh! I can lounge exposed with pores wide open from the dry heat of a sauna or the momentary blissful exhalation of steam entering my nostrils…sigh…Whoo…feels so damn good…exhale! Sigh…blink twice…eyes closed…now DRIFTING away…Ahhh - Yesss!
…AND THEN HERE COMES SOME “PATHETIC MALE” OR “FEMALE” DEMYSTIFYING MY EXPERIENCE WITH LEGS SPRAWLED FROM CORNER TO CORNER OF THE SAUNA BENCH EXPOSING HER TATTOOED BIKINI WAXED GARDEN OF DELIGHTS - WHEN THE SIGN ON THE SAUNA DOOR CLEARLY PROHIBITS ENTERING UNCLOTHED - YET, THE PATHETIC MALE/FEMALE POWER COMPLEX WHICH OPERATES AS A LAW UNTO ITSELF STILL BARGES INTO THE STEAM ROOM - WITH HIS COCKY DICK POKING BETWEEN THE FOLD OF HIS TOWEL AS AN INVITATION TO MAKE A GOD-DAMNED PERVERSION ON MY RIGHT TO A PURIFIED EXPERIENCE (IN THE MIDST OF OTHERS)…
Yeah, Douggins, I have to cross that sex-crazed, violation-vulnerable atmosphere of the health club that has become my “third place” for the duration of my daily fitness regimen.
And yet, I suppose I am in denial over my own sense of vulnerability to be violated by the pathetic males who fixate their eyes upon my bountiful ass during the first few reps of my smith squats on “lower body strength training day”. I have to plan carefully over which fitness to wear that won’t accentuate certain parts of my body that tend to “stand out” on their own. I pretend to ignore the accosting looks and lip-smacking glances I get from the buffed-up, socially irrelevant beefcakes grunting and groaning through their sets and reps.
And STILL YET, I deny, deny, deny and hold my chin up higher, with my sweaty shoulders pulled back - declaring my right to have a beautiful body that desires absolute purity. Because that is what I stand for. And I suppose, Douggins, that if a man or woman were to attempt to physically violate my right to purity in the midst of blatant sexuality - then, yeah - it WOULD PISS ME OFF!!! And that is perhaps the fury that ignites the fire that burns though the hashtagMeToo initiative.
I love you so much, Douggins! I wish that you were geographically accessible because I’d meeting you for coffee on a regular basis. No strings attached! [blowing you a kiss AND a big hug]
Was it good for YOU, too!
(Though I do not smoke)
I have been reflecting on hashtag and Gebser and ultimate freedom. I need to collect my thoughts and then come back to this very soon.
Well said! Really digging your writing. Consider me a spiritual smoker.
I’m really digging my writing, too. I love it when I can say it like I really mean it! I appreciate what you shared with me and could identify with it on many levels. The onomastics behind my name, “Katina” include the concept of “extreme purity”. And that is so very true of me! To a fault in an impure culture. Hence, when I am gifted with some of the encounters I have experience here on IC, I start to gush my soul out to connect with “other” such people. You transmit a very refreshing and sincere type of soulistic purity that just oozes out through the screen pixels into this warm, rapturous embrace. Like someone coming along on a cold, windy night and gently enveloping a blanket around my shoulders (seriously, bonfire and mug of hot chamomile and all, Douggins!) I want to give that back to you.
Love You to Life, Douggins!
I was reflecting on my fury over the current state of the sexes yesterday, with particular emphasis on the role women have taken regarding the explosion of the “hashtagMe2” schism. Then, out of nowhere, in the midst of my disappointment, Gebser enters into the dialogue! And surprisingly, after funneling this current sociological fiasco through Gebser’s historical sieve of evolutionary human consciousness, I emerged simultaneously, better able to “cope” with this current rage against the sexes AND yet, still maintaining my disdain for the way women have responded to this current “corrective action” of the socio-historical power shift from the lap of their male counterpart and up the skirts of our own self-wielded sexual identity.
Put it this way…
When we transitioned from the Mythical Stage to that of the Integral, the hitherto empowering maternal symbol of female was being muted out, mutated and replaced with an alternate paradigm to be dominated by the male expression of human consciousness. As the development of our mentality accompanied this transformation into the Integral, the sexual empowerment dynamic shifted from the maternal to the paternal. Consequently, resulting in the historically traumatic oppression of female sexuality and identity imposed upon us by our male counterpart.
Gebser identifies several examples of the historical trauma arising between the sexes in their grueling battle for balance. The transition from this Mythical Stage, belonging to woman to the current Integral Stage, was accompanied with plays and other writings about matricide, how the mother must die. There is also coming out of this period the Oedipus complex, which is the destruction of the mother oriented, psychic–mythical consciousness. Instead of polarity there is a mutation toward duality.
And we enter into the Integral Stage with male as “Victor” over female whom is relegated to that of “Victim”.
We find ourselves at the threshold of another major transformative mutation in the relationship between the sexes, as history was working our species towards a more fully developed mentality, women have occupied the disenfranchised end of the polarity of power between the sexes.
As human consciousness continued its transformation into the Integral Stage, all of a sudden, you will find that in Greek mythology there is the birth of a goddess, Athena. She was born from the head of a chief god, Zeus, not from the womb, not from the nocturnal mystery of mother. When the blow to Zeus’ head occurred from which Athena sprang up, the circling of the entire sky, that is, the circular time consciousness was stopped. Athena was born, the mythical circle was destroyed.
All right, so the mythical circle is broken, the full force of the human face emerges, the frontal orientation emerges, the left which was always connected with the myth and the psyche, loses its power, and right emerges as the basic orientation. Everything must be done right. In fact, human rights come from that emergence of mental consciousness.
The sexual power dynamic shifted into the lap of man with its ultimate expression found in the explosive contents of the erect phallic as the source of life and human identity.
Although, woman’s survival was still securely dependent upon the willful egotistical expression of man. Her opportunity for empowerment was no longer identified with her inherent maternal identity as life-giver (this was shifted to the “Head” of man’s male sexual organ, from which even the new symbol of the Athena-warrior “goddess” sprung into this male-dominated Integral Stage of human consciousness). And woman’s identity and self-expression was no longer justified by the physical act of childbirth, but rather subjugated to and replaced by the male-dominated power structure accessed via this newly developing human mentality, in which man became the gatekeeper AND from which, woman’s access was conditionally barred.
And what, pray tell, are the new conditions for female access to this limited opportunity for self-expression and empowerment (in which the male is the gatekeeper)? I’ll give you a hint? I believe that it can be found, NOT behind the apron strings of the maternal nature (that went out in the Mythical Stage), whilst this still guarantees woman’s survival in this new, male-dominated, historical domain, yet is insufficient to thrive as a physical manifestation of power in man’s new, mentality-driven era of human expression.
Yet, I believe that Sophia, (in Woman’s Wisdom) hid the skeleton key, not behind the apron of the fertility goddess, Diana, but rather, somewhere up the warrior skirt and girdle of Athena, where she could utilize her female sexuality to “pick the lock”, if you will, into the male-dominated domain of a pseudo-mentality driven culture of so-called “rational animals” (which women knew to be an absolute “crock” once you catch a man with his pants down).
When the male manhood stood erect at attention to offer limited female access to his mentality-driven world of opportunity and he extended his hand up her skirt as an invitation to gain backdoor access through her backdoor. She even used cuntilingus to cunningly oblige his invitation. And accepted her new oppressive role in the polarity of the sexes, as the weaker vessel in this polarity turned duality. And for a while, they lived happily ever after as man loosened woman’s apron strings in exchange for access up her custom-tailored, corporate work skirt.
But, then woman started to have pant suits tailored!
And as history always finds a divine way of guiding the human consciousness towards corrective action, to fulfill the cosmological demand for balance and therefore, further delay impending entropy. Woman’s cunning participation in this traumatic dualism has finally taken its toll and - when she roared in protest…
…And just like the Greek “Mythological” phenomenon trembling at the birth of the male-mentality birthed, warrior goddess’, when Athena roars, the seas roared up and the mountains trembled. And who is Athena? What are her characteristics? She is no longer like the nocturnal kronos. She is the owl–eyed. She can see in the dark. She can see clearly.
Sophia resurfaced and revealed the so-called “rule of the mental” (and in fact it was the rule) for what it really was (and is). History intervenes, this time utilizing the very scales of balance which man has dangled from his loin cloth since the death of the myth and birth of the mental.
This “hashtag” is history’s corrective action against the male-dominated oppression of woman, in which he used the very tools of a fully developed mental consciousness void of an ethical one; justice, human rights.
Just as the Mythical Stage ended quite recently, and as with all traditions it ended in the announcement of the destruction of its basic symbol. Remember what happened to psychic consciousness, matricide. Mother had to die. The mother earth, the mother of all gods and goddesses had to die. What happens in our nineteenth century, patricide. History’s corrective action to restore balance in the universe for a just a while longer.
And so, my question is? What’s next. Fine, the hashtag hearings, women no longer have to suck and gag on jello-pudding pops, in exchange for a taste of filet and lobster! I get it now, thanks to Gebser! Yet where does this leave us.
Matricide followed by the current death blow of patricide. What is left? When will the synthesis arrive?
Thank you very much for empassioned post. Please don’t take anything I might say as critique. I’m not picking nits, I merely have a few tweaks to suggest that may make what you have to say even clearer.
You may have mistyped in your exuberance. We transitioned from the Mythical to the Mental structure of consciousness according to Gebser. I would very much like to think that we are in the process of transitioning from the Mental to the Integral, but as most of the others here who are familiar with Gebser and me are aware, I have serious doubts about whether we’re going to make it. One of the notions that we have explored in numerous Ccafés is the an understanding of what that Integral structure really is. I don’t think it’s a very easy question to answer.
One of the things that Gebser emphasizes in regard to our potential mutation to the Integral structure is a reactivation, a reviving, if you will, of the efficient modes of the previous structures of consciousness, including the efficient Mental which as been more or less suppressed by the deficient mode, namely the Rational structure. Consequently, a formulation like “the mythical circle was destroyed” could be tempered by saying it was perhaps repressed or forced into the unconscious even. I would personally say, in keeping with Gebser’s own approach, that they are forced into latency in comparison to the currently active structure.
And a last tweak, I would suggest rephrasing your very poignant final question, “When will the synthesis arrive?” as “When will the synairesis manifest?” Again, I’m not picking nits, the term “synthesis” is very laden with mental/rational overtones, which is why Gebser coined the term “synairesis” to replace it. Whereas the former concept focuses on reconciling or overcoming a duality, the latter describes the integration, the bringing together of any number of related and antithetical notions into a more vibrant integrating whole.
Given the scope of your remarks, the word “synairesis” is much more fitting to what you have been describing. The metaphor of “death and rebirth” is, I believe, a very important one in our current situation and in our understanding of what may be going on. We have a very great need of going back and resurrecting the Feminine that the Patriarchial believed to have killed (eradicated, destroyed). (Jung picked up on this in his notion of the Anima.) To do this, we have to dig very deep into our psyches, to be sure. As you so aptly point out, integration is not going to take place by woman becoming man-like. Your own hearkening “back” (I would say “inwardly”) to Sophia (who is Wisdom, period, not just women’s wisdom) and Athena (fully armored AND owl-eyed) are highly relevant here.
Nietzsche’s declaration that G-d is dead was simply the rallying cry for a self-absorbed rationalism that tolerates no other power than its own. Balance was not restored, as I see it, for beside the upheavals of new ways of thinking, such as quantum physics or depth psychology, just to mention perhaps the most obvious, there has been a suicidal surge of analytics which found its due end in the meaninglessness of existentialism, the pseudo-philosophy of the analytical philosophers, and, of course, its crowning (I use the word ironically) achievement, deconstructionism. We’re only left with death, which is hardly balancing at all. No, I think we’ve been floundering ever since and while there are many who show indications that Gebser’s perceived mutation is occurring, we are left with the nagging doubt that, as he himself noted, we could just as easily destroy ourselves before that mutation takes hold. Of all the structures, only the Integral, according to Gebser, would be able to go deficient before its efficient mode appeared. That would make all our talk moot.
It is encouraging that there are other, important traditions – such as Aurobindo and (how odd!) the Mother, or even Kabbalah – which pick-up-on, delve-into, engage, and encourage a (what I would call) synairetic understanding of the Feminine as a balancing factor on the one hand, but even more importantly enabler of the dynamic necessary to keep things going. We’ve got our work very much cut out for ourselves.
I haven’t read your response yet, Ed - only skimmed over it. But it is much appreciated. I encourage your corrections to the intricacies of Gebser’s philosophy. I make the frequent mistake of getting the Mythical, Magical, and Mental Stages mixed up. Esp. as they all possess “ever present” characteristics of each other in spite of their mutations.
I hope that you get the general “gist” of what I’m getting at here, as it applies to the current power shift between the sexes. Maternalism died with the Mythical Stage. Paternalism, (I believe) took the stage as we transformed into the Mental Stage of human consciousness (intensifying the oppression of the female power myth by relegating to a status of inferiority as a merely physical expression of human consciousness).
What’s going on NOW, could be the final death blow of paternalism as we have shifted from a polarized view of the sexes to an Integral “dualized” relationship.
Well, the “duel” is over. What is next? And again, I have yet to read your response and I am sure that my above-mentioned questions or misunderstanding of Gebser will be resolved upon thoroughly reading your response (which I have yet to do b/c I am currently working online and do not want to approach it right now with insufficient focus and attention).
Thank you so much for guiding my misunderstanding. I genuinely appreciate it, as it is very brotherly of you!
Love You to Life, Ed!
P. S. I will reply to your response as I read through it in increments. Please feel free to interject wherever I go astray or misinterpret you along the way, yeah?